Global-flat.com Board
English => General Flatland Forum => Topic started by: Voodoo on October 13, 2019, 03:16:05 PM
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I think it's imperative that we start an official Height / Bike / Frame database for
beginners looking for information on what size frame they should get to even someone
who thinks they might be riding the wrong frame. Or even someone looking for something
new.
In my opinion, people put waaay too much emphasis on top tube length. Not only is rear
end length just as important..but wheelbase is the most important thing on a flatland bike.
RULES -
NO GUESSING
ONLY ACTUAL DATA ALLOWED
THANKS!
1) Post your height
2) Your brand and model of frame
3) Your top tube length(s)
4) Your rear end length(s)
5) Your wheelbase (or wheelbases)
You can also add other information like whether you ride a zero offset fork or offset, crank length, stem length, etc. Comments on whether the bike feels cramped or spacious are important too. Any vital information.
This information is vital for people. Especially beginners. It's one thing to read about something. It's another to see what people actually use in real life according to their height and/or weight. This could help someone new from buying the wrong frame and/or wasting money / having to go through the process of selling a frame they hate to get another one.
I'll go first
Me -
Just over 5' 8" tall
130-135 pounds depending on the time of year
Lanky build (think caucasian version of Takahiro Ikeda)
2013 St. Martin Ten
17.9" top tube
12.1" Rear
30.5" Wheelbase
125mm Profile cranks
Zero offset forks
First off - Very few St. Martin frames are the actual length they are advertised as. That's just a fact. My friend Wes and I have owned just about every St. Martin frame ever made at one point or another. We have both meticulously measured them and most of them are shorter than advertised. The 17.9" top tube Ten by St. Martin is actually 17 5/8". MUCH shorter than 17.9". Keep this in mind as we go forward.
Feels cramped up front. Awesome for Hang Five type tricks. VERY squirrely for whiplash / front wheel tricks because the frame is very short and not very stable..so it doesn't work very well as a counter balance. You have to compensate with your body. Also, with light tires like KHE Mac 1's, the front wheel can unintentionally hop during Fire Hydrant type tricks. It just seems to have no anchor. A heavier set of tires and/or pegs on each end of this bike would do it justice, I think.
You need short cranks on this frame. Otherwise, they're just ridiculously in the way.
Overall, I think this frame would be PERFECT for someone between 5' 1" and 5' 6". Especially if you have short limbs and not monkey arms like I do.
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2013 St. Martin Ten
18.8" top tube
12.1" rear
31.5" Wheelbase
145mm Profile cranks
Zero offset forks
Again, this St. Martin frame is actually 18 5/8"...not 18.8 as advertised.
Very comfortable up front. You can use a 26mm stem or 40-45mm stem and still feel comfortable on this bike. After riding it for a long time with a 28mm stem, I switched to a 35mm Colony Exon stem and it made the bike feel perfect for me. An inch doesn't sound like much..but the handling between this frame and the 17.9 Ten listed above is NIGHT and DAY. Frame works excellent as a counter balance and I'd say it's perfect for anyone between 5' 5" and 5' 10" tall. My only complaint is that I wish the frame was actually 18.8" because I grew up riding a frame that had a top tube which was almost exactly that size.
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2013 St. Martin Voodoo
19.3" top tube
12.1" rear
32" wheelbase
125mm cranks
zero offset fork
Another St. Martin top tube scandal. I measured this one right away. From the Gyro tab holes to the center of the seat tube is 19 1/4". Not 19.3 as advertised. Close enough, though.
I literally just built this bike yesterday. Generally, a 19.3" top tube would be a deal breaker for me because that usually means a longer rear end. However, not in this case. The rear end is still only 12.1" which keeps the wheelbase length down while giving you TONS of room up front. As of right now, I'm running a 35mm stem on it. I don't have the experience on it to get into great detail..but I can tell you this - If I wasn't old school and didn't still use the top tube for tricks, the bike would be too long for me..and probably anyone around 5' 8"..unless you like a LOT of room. However, I still launch decades from the top tube and it feels amazing. I love having the space up front with a super short rear end. When I have more experience with this bike, I will come back and edit this to add more information.
I've added photos of each frame / rig in order of listing below.
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I was 6' 2" tall when I graduated high school but I guess I've shrunk because nowadays I measure about 6' 1"
I weigh about 185 pounds
I'm tall and mostly lanky
Frame: 2019 We The People Utopia
20" Top Tube
13.125" Rear End
33.5" Wheelbase
160 or 165mm cranks, I forget which
Zero Offset Forks
40mm reach stem with 34mm rise (top load)
Handlebars have 8" rise and I have as many spacers as possible underneath the stem (and fork steerer Tube is tall, 185mm)
This bike has been the best fit for me of all the bikes I've tried thus far. Backwheel tricks especially feel nice whereas previous bikes always felt too tiny in relation to my body. Front wheel tricks are great too, plenty of room and the seat doesn't feel too far away.
As good as the bike feels I am still interested in trying an even longer frame. Thinking of getting a frame with similar angles but with a top tube between 20.5 to 21 inches and setting the rear end around 13.3".
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Nice!
Here's something to keep in mind and is useful info for frame hunters -
If you find a frame that has a top tube that you like but the chainstay happens to be a hair too long, most dropouts have enough space in them remove material. Say a rear dropout was 13.6" slammed and you wanted 13.3". You could use a 3/8" or 14mm carbide burr (depending on your axle slot size) and bring that axle slot in to get it down to 13.3". I've found that MOST dropouts have at least a 1/4" of space where material can be safely removed.
A lot of people would be firmly against this. But if it's done proper, it's totally invisible and you wouldn't even notice with the wheel removed.
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Ive been riding the WTP Utopia with the 20" TT for awhile now, but Ive been really wanting to try an even longer frame. I finally got enough $ together, so last week i bought a DK Phase frame with a TT of 20.8" and a rear end about 0.25" longer than my utopia (13.25" slammed vs 12.95" slammed). So i expected this bike's wheelbase to be about 1" longer then my utopia, and it is. The headtube angle is slightly steeper (75.2 instead of 75) and the seat tube is a bit more mellow (71 instead of 71.5).
I am LOVING this longer frame. Back wheel tricks feel so much more natural for me, the balance point just feels more align with my body whereas on shorter frames balance just feels awkward and cramped especially in tight spins.
So far front wheel tricks feel good too. I thought, for sure, that certain front wheel tricks like jugglers would be difficult with the longer TT but so far they haven't been. Everything on the front still feels good, just going to take a bit of time to readjust for a few tricks but that is to be expected with any major change. Hang fives and hang nothings feel great, I was worried the seat would feel too far away, but nope. Same with spinning switch handed steam rollers, the distance from the grip to the seat feels perfect. The only trick that Ivee found so far that feels a bit awkward is the karl kruiser, but i think with a bit more practice I will readjust no problem.
I was really worried that going with a 20.8" TT would be too much of a change but it hasn't been and I am very glad i went with it. If you are a taller rider and feel cramped on 'normal' flatland bike then maybe give a longer bike a try. It worked out for me.
I'm tall and mostly lanky, about 6'1" and 180lbs
Frame: 2019 DK Phase
20.8" Top Tube
13.5" Rear End (pegs are hanging off the ends of the dropouts a bit)
34.5" Wheelbase
160mm cranks
Zero Offset Forks
40mm reach stem with 34mm rise (top load)
Handlebars have 8" rise and I have as many spacers as possible underneath the stem (and fork steerer Tube is tall, 185mm)
(https://i.imgur.com/YLFLk0f.jpg)
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Hi Voodoo, very good idea!
1. I am 6 ft 2" tall (1.88 m)2. I mainly use a PiR custom frame.3. TT is 19.17" (48.7 cm) measured center to center parallel to the top tube4. CS is 13.19" (33.5 cm)5. Wheelbase is 32.87" (83.5 cm)
I fully agree that the wheelbase is super important!
Many riders would say this is very short for my size, but I tried a Flatware Tango with almost identical angles and CS with 1 cm more wheelbase and it somehow felt too long even after month. I am super happy with the geometry of the custom PiR frame. Nevertheless I can also ride well with the Tango which I have built up as a spare bike.
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that I use zero offset forks.
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I think top tube length is subjective to each individual. I know ppl that are the same height as myself that ride 20” top and others that ride much shorter and both shred, each person will have a personal fav and unless you ride diff setups and experiment you’ll never know.
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Okay, as a shorter rider, I'd like to add my input on this. What image hosting service should I use to post a pic?
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Okay, as a shorter rider, I'd like to add my input on this. What image hosting service should I use to post a pic?
imgBB
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Thanks!
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I'm 5'5" and 150 lbs. Here are my bike measurements before I switched to a smaller ride last week.
2016 Ares APlus-1
18.5" TT
13.18" rear end
32" wheelbase
40mm shadow conspiracy odin stem and zero-degree forks.
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this is a great reference and is going to save me a ton of money.. keep posting!!!
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Ive been riding the WTP Utopia with the 20" TT for awhile now, but Ive been really wanting to try an even longer frame. I finally got enough $ together, so last week i bought a DK Phase frame with a TT of 20.8" and a rear end about 0.25" longer than my utopia (13.25" slammed vs 12.95" slammed). So i expected this bike's wheelbase to be about 1" longer then my utopia, and it is. The headtube angle is slightly steeper (75.2 instead of 75) and the seat tube is a bit more mellow (71 instead of 71.5).
I am LOVING this longer frame. Back wheel tricks feel so much more natural for me, the balance point just feels more align with my body whereas on shorter frames balance just feels awkward and cramped especially in tight spins.
So far front wheel tricks feel good too. I thought, for sure, that certain front wheel tricks like jugglers would be difficult with the longer TT but so far they haven't been. Everything on the front still feels good, just going to take a bit of time to readjust for a few tricks but that is to be expected with any major change. Hang fives and hang nothings feel great, I was worried the seat would feel too far away, but nope. Same with spinning switch handed steam rollers, the distance from the grip to the seat feels perfect. The only trick that Ivee found so far that feels a bit awkward is the karl kruiser, but i think with a bit more practice I will readjust no problem.
I was really worried that going with a 20.8" TT would be too much of a change but it hasn't been and I am very glad i went with it. If you are a taller rider and feel cramped on 'normal' flatland bike then maybe give a longer bike a try. It worked out for me.
I'm tall and mostly lanky, about 6'1" and 180lbs
Frame: 2019 DK Phase
20.8" Top Tube
13.5" Rear End (pegs are hanging off the ends of the dropouts a bit)
34.5" Wheelbase
160mm cranks
Zero Offset Forks
40mm reach stem with 34mm rise (top load)
Handlebars have 8" rise and I have as many spacers as possible underneath the stem (and fork steerer Tube is tall, 185mm)
(https://i.imgur.com/YLFLk0f.jpg)
I have a similar thread now going in a Facebook group. and I'm calculating the ratio between tt+stem length and height so I can standardize comparisons. (I know there are other factors but this works for my thought process)..
this is the longest set up I've seen here or there.
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Yes it's a pretty long setup and I bet most would find it too long. I don't know, it's working great for me. It's the first bike that I don't feel uncomfortably cramped on.
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Yes it's a pretty long setup and I bet most would find it too long. I don't know, it's working great for me. It's the first bike that I don't feel uncomfortably cramped on.
well, its good to know people are riding flat only on long set ups too.. a part of me just wants to rebuild my old 250L which was 21.25tt/48mm and go from there. its definitely what I'm used to riding but Im afraid it will hinder progression trying to ride flat only on it. and just starting out I want to do everything I can to lower the learning curve.. I do dream a Long buttery manual or a fast peg manual on a long bike though but thats about as close to riding flat on it I got. which I'm sure is laughable to those here.
fyi I'm 6'0.. not super tall..
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Really the only thing that will truly hinder progression is not practicing. You can likely learn just about any trick on most setups, some things will be easier on a shorter bike and some things will be easier on a long bike. There really isn't an ideal setup, there will be pros and cons either way.
I am over 6 feet tall and have ridden very short bikes (1999 Hoffman EP, for example), long bikes like my current setup and everything in between. Progression happened on every bike whether it was short or long.
And there definitely are people riding flat on long bikes. An obvious example is Matthias Dandois, he currently rides with a TT of 21" .
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And there definitely are people riding flat on long bikes. An obvious example is Matthias Dandois, he currently rides with a TT of 21" .
there is also that guy from Arkansas, for sooooo long ;)
http://www.flatmattersonline.com/trevor-meyers-new-custom-flatland-frame (http://www.flatmattersonline.com/trevor-meyers-new-custom-flatland-frame)
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Lol! How could I forget to mention Trevor Meyer! He has always been one to ride a long bike along with tall/wide bars.
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Really the only thing that will truly hinder progression is not practicing. You can likely learn just about any trick on most setups, some things will be easier on a shorter bike and some things will be easier on a long bike. There really isn't an ideal setup, there will be pros and cons either way.
I am over 6 feet tall and have ridden very short bikes (1999 Hoffman EP, for example), long bikes like my current setup and everything in between. Progression happened on every bike whether it was short or long.
And there definitely are people riding flat on long bikes. An obvious example is Matthias Dandois, he currently rides with a TT of 21" .
I think you bring up a really good point here about riding long bike vs not riding... I am trying to build a new set up though so I just want something optimal. will def push on in the meantime.
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I think it's imperative that we start an official Height / Bike / Frame database for
beginners looking for information on what size frame they should get to even someone
who thinks they might be riding the wrong frame. Or even someone looking for something
new.
In my opinion, people put waaay too much emphasis on top tube length. Not only is rear
end length just as important..but wheelbase is the most important thing on a flatland bike.
RULES -
NO GUESSING
ONLY ACTUAL DATA ALLOWED
THANKS!
1) Post your height
2) Your brand and model of frame
3) Your top tube length(s)
4) Your rear end length(s)
5) Your wheelbase (or wheelbases)
You can also add other information like whether you ride a zero offset fork or offset, crank length, stem length, etc. Comments on whether the bike feels cramped or spacious are important too. Any vital information.
This information is vital for people. Especially beginners. It's one thing to read about something. It's another to see what people actually use in real life according to their height and/or weight. This could help someone new from buying the wrong frame and/or wasting money / having to go through the process of selling a frame they hate to get another one.
I'll go first
Me -
Just over 5' 8" tall
130-135 pounds depending on the time of year
Lanky build (think caucasian version of Takahiro Ikeda)
2013 St. Martin Ten
17.9" top tube
12.1" Rear
30.5" Wheelbase
125mm Profile cranks
Zero offset forks
First off - Very few St. Martin frames are the actual length they are advertised as. That's just a fact. My friend Wes and I have owned just about every St. Martin frame ever made at one point or another. We have both meticulously measured them and most of them are shorter than advertised. The 17.9" top tube Ten by St. Martin is actually 17 5/8". MUCH shorter than 17.9". Keep this in mind as we go forward.
Feels cramped up front. Awesome for Hang Five type tricks. VERY squirrely for whiplash / front wheel tricks because the frame is very short and not very stable..so it doesn't work very well as a counter balance. You have to compensate with your body. Also, with light tires like KHE Mac 1's, the front wheel can unintentionally hop during Fire Hydrant type tricks. It just seems to have no anchor. A heavier set of tires and/or pegs on each end of this bike would do it justice, I think.
You need short cranks on this frame. Otherwise, they're just ridiculously in the way.
Overall, I think this frame would be PERFECT for someone between 5' 1" and 5' 6". Especially if you have short limbs and not monkey arms like I do.
===============================
2013 St. Martin Ten
18.8" top tube
12.1" rear
31.5" Wheelbase
145mm Profile cranks
Zero offset forks
Again, this St. Martin frame is actually 18 5/8"...not 18.8 as advertised.
Very comfortable up front. You can use a 26mm stem or 40-45mm stem and still feel comfortable on this bike. After riding it for a long time with a 28mm stem, I switched to a 35mm Colony Exon stem and it made the bike feel perfect for me. An inch doesn't sound like much..but the handling between this frame and the 17.9 Ten listed above is NIGHT and DAY. Frame works excellent as a counter balance and I'd say it's perfect for anyone between 5' 5" and 5' 10" tall. My only complaint is that I wish the frame was actually 18.8" because I grew up riding a frame that had a top tube which was almost exactly that size.
==================================
2013 St. Martin Voodoo
19.3" top tube
12.1" rear
32" wheelbase
125mm cranks
zero offset fork
Another St. Martin top tube scandal. I measured this one right away. From the Gyro tab holes to the center of the seat tube is 19 1/4". Not 19.3 as advertised. Close enough, though.
I literally just built this bike yesterday. Generally, a 19.3" top tube would be a deal breaker for me because that usually means a longer rear end. However, not in this case. The rear end is still only 12.1" which keeps the wheelbase length down while giving you TONS of room up front. As of right now, I'm running a 35mm stem on it. I don't have the experience on it to get into great detail..but I can tell you this - If I wasn't old school and didn't still use the top tube for tricks, the bike would be too long for me..and probably anyone around 5' 8"..unless you like a LOT of room. However, I still launch decades from the top tube and it feels amazing. I love having the space up front with a super short rear end. When I have more experience with this bike, I will come back and edit this to add more information.
I've added photos of each frame / rig in order of listing below.
Great thread and info here. I'm 6'2 195. My 19.5 Ares AFX tt feels plenty long but with a 12.6 CS my heel hits the back peg . I'm just getting back into bmx and flatland for the first time since about 1988. I also have a 21 inch tt street bike with 13 inch cs, a Fly Omega, which feels plenty roomy but way too long for flatland. As I do more front and back wheel tricks on my Ares I should get a better idea of my ideal bike dimensions. Incidentally I already broke the Ares stem bolt so I'm replacing it with an s&m flatland stem. Also I'm swapping out the 27 inch wide Ares bars for 22 inc wide Bayou bars I scored on Offer Up. I also don't like the Ares pedals so I'm swapping them for some Odyssey Grandstand V2s since my feet are big and need more surface contact....
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Hey guys,
This is an awesome thread. I'm currently in the market for a new frame and am wondering how much longer I should go.
Height: 5'11
Weight: 180lbs
Current Setup:
ST. Martin Eiffel Frame
TT: 18.2
I'm just getting back into flat after a long hiatus and have noticed that I just don't feel like I have enough room at times. I've been eyeing the Autum Blitz No Touch Frame TT 18.7
Before I shelve out any money I was wondering is .5' would actually make a difference? Also what happened to all the style??? Everything just look like regular street bikes now.
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Hello classytouch, nice to have you here!
Yeah, the street look... I don't like it so much but almost all riders follow this trend at the moment. This is why frames like the Autum are rare.About the TT length: 0.5" can feel a lot! I would not choose more difference (although in the end you can get used to anything).
But it depends a lot on the overall geometry! When you have a longer TT with HT and ST angle being the same, your seat is more far away from the handlebar (as long as you do not compensate with your seat position (as long as you don't use pivotal seats)). But you could have the same effect for example with a lower ST angle...
For backwheel tricks the wheelbase is very imortant for your overall feeling. So you need to consider this parameter and it is influenced by the CS length, ST angle, HT angle and TT length.
This may help to estimate how much different another frame might feel.
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Hello classytouch, nice to have you here!
Yeah, the street look... I don't like it so much but almost all riders follow this trend at the moment. This is why frames like the Autum are rare.About the TT length: 0.5" can feel a lot! I would not choose more difference (although in the end you can get used to anything).
But it depends a lot on the overall geometry! When you have a longer TT with HT and ST angle being the same, your seat is more far away from the handlebar (as long as you do not compensate with your seat position (as long as you don't use pivotal seats)). But you could have the same effect for example with a lower ST angle...
For backwheel tricks the wheelbase is very imortant for your overall feeling. So you need to consider this parameter and it is influenced by the CS length, ST angle, HT angle and TT length.
This may help to estimate how much different another frame might feel.
Hey DaddyCool,
I really appreciate your taking time to answer my question! I've been riding for some time but for some reason never truly understood the mathematics of frames with respect to rider and fit. I know some of it is trial and error but I also want to get something i'll be really happy with...Something with some STYLE too! I think I'm going to give the Autum a shot..... Also... Where can one get an Ares? It seems Flatlandfuel doesn't have as many frame options as they used to have.
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Hello classytouch, nice to have you here!
Yeah, the street look... I don't like it so much but almost all riders follow this trend at the moment. This is why frames like the Autum are rare.About the TT length: 0.5" can feel a lot! I would not choose more difference (although in the end you can get used to anything).
But it depends a lot on the overall geometry! When you have a longer TT with HT and ST angle being the same, your seat is more far away from the handlebar (as long as you do not compensate with your seat position (as long as you don't use pivotal seats)). But you could have the same effect for example with a lower ST angle...
For backwheel tricks the wheelbase is very imortant for your overall feeling. So you need to consider this parameter and it is influenced by the CS length, ST angle, HT angle and TT length.
This may help to estimate how much different another frame might feel.
Hey DaddyCool,
I really appreciate your taking time to answer my question! I've been riding for some time but for some reason never truly understood the mathematics of frames with respect to rider and fit. I know some of it is trial and error but I also want to get something i'll be really happy with...Something with some STYLE too! I think I'm going to give the Autum a shot..... Also... Where can one get an Ares? It seems Flatlandfuel doesn't have as many frame options as they used to have.
I was checking out Alejo Marques' channel on youtube. He rated the Autum his number one frame currently on Flatland Fuel. He also liked the Heresy, based on his riding it...incidentally. at 6 feet tall he said anything over 20tt is uncomfortable for him for flatland. I think what we have to keep in mind is we really don't pedal that much; it seems like the distance between peg, and distance to get around the bike matters. For me I'm riding 19.5 tt with 8 inch bars. I'm switching to 9 inch bars but I think my next frame will be 19.3 or even 19...
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I'm happy to see this thread getting information added to it.
As for some of the replies about frame length being subjective, they are right. But there are some factors there that can be weighed out by the person riding the bike and then factored into the information on this thread. As some people like what they're using to feel a little small and some people like to feel like they are climbing on monkey bars.
I've been riding my St. Martin Voodoo with a top tube of 19.3 (which measures in at 19.25" according to my measurements). St. Martins actual lengths can be different than stated. A lot. Again, I'm 5' 8" and I do a lot of tricks off the top tube (old school style). I have found that I really like a little room up front..but my issue is that I like a short wheelbase..so having a longer top tube with a 12" rear end really works for me. My wheelbase is about 31.75"..so for having a longer top tube, I'm still rocking a very short base. I just rock super short cranks (125mm) so my feet don't catch on either the front tire or the rear pegs when I'm on the pedals.
There are advantages to all three of my rigs. Since they are identical in every way except top tube length, I can give you the lowdown on the pros and cons of all three now.
I read some old school posts. So I'll add some info about these more modern frames with old school style tricks.
17.9" tt Ten - Super nimble. Whiplash / steamroller type tricks equal the rear end rotating without even trying. The shortness makes it a little harder to balance when rolling, though. The frame isn't as much of a counter weight. Old school style decades and off-the-top-tube tricks feel cramped.
18.8" tt Ten - That inch makes a difference. Counterweight of the frame feels a little more natural to me when rolling. Less twitchy. Off-the-top-tube and other old school style tricks feel a little more natural on this rig.
19.3" tt Voodoo - Feels the most comfortable up front for old school style tricks. It's like a cross between the feel of an old school Haro Master and a Haro Sport. I'm only talking top tube length. Coincidentally, I'm running a 45mm stem on my rigs now..and it's the exact reach of the old school Group 1 stems from back in the day. Switching from the 17.9" Ten to the 19.3" Voodoo will have you immediately taking note of the differences. Whiplash / steamroller type tricks will have me banging the rear tire of the Voodoo off the ground until I get used to it. And it requires a little more work to get the rear end rotating.
If you are going to be doing strictly old school type tricks, I recommend using a top tube from 18.75" - 19.5"...Or longer if you're into that. I'm just going by the fact that most frames from back in the day had top tube lengths of 18.75 to 19.5..and from modern testing, that's what feels the most comfortable for me. For reference, The 87,88,89 Haro Master top tube was 18.75" and I believe the Kawahara Bravo Pro and the General Osborn Pro had 19.5" top tubes. But the rear triangles on all of them were 15.5-16.5 inches...and longer. Insane. But that whole 18.75-19.5" buzzer zone is the perfect amount of room to utilize the top tube. And with today's shorter rear ends, you can still take advantage of having a shorter wheelbase. The best thing about todays frames is the shorter rear end length and the shorter wheelbase.
I've told a thousand people a longer version of this story..but I used to complain back in '89 that freestyle bikes had the same rear end length as a lot of racing frames. It made no sense to me. I also thought the top tube should be much lower (standover height) and I thought we should be using zero offset forks. It took them well over a decade to start doing it. One of the reasons I went new school was seeing that what I was thinking about those years ago had turned into reality.
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I'm happy to see this thread getting information added to it.
As for some of the replies about frame length being subjective, they are right. But there are some factors there that can be weighed out by the person riding the bike and then factored into the information on this thread. As some people like what they're using to feel a little small and some people like to feel like they are climbing on monkey bars.
I've been riding my St. Martin Voodoo with a top tube of 19.3 (which measures in at 19.25" according to my measurements). St. Martins actual lengths can be different than stated. A lot. Again, I'm 5' 8" and I do a lot of tricks off the top tube (old school style). I have found that I really like a little room up front..but my issue is that I like a short wheelbase..so having a longer top tube with a 12" rear end really works for me. My wheelbase is about 31.75"..so for having a longer top tube, I'm still rocking a very short base. I just rock super short cranks (125mm) so my feet don't catch on either the front tire or the rear pegs when I'm on the pedals.
There are advantages to all three of my rigs. Since they are identical in every way except top tube length, I can give you the lowdown on the pros and cons of all three now.
I read some old school posts. So I'll add some info about these more modern frames with old school style tricks.
17.9" tt Ten - Super nimble. Whiplash / steamroller type tricks equal the rear end rotating without even trying. The shortness makes it a little harder to balance when rolling, though. The frame isn't as much of a counter weight. Old school style decades and off-the-top-tube tricks feel cramped.
18.8" tt Ten - That inch makes a difference. Counterweight of the frame feels a little more natural to me when rolling. Less twitchy. Off-the-top-tube and other old school style tricks feel a little more natural on this rig.
19.3" tt Voodoo - Feels the most comfortable up front for old school style tricks. It's like a cross between the feel of an old school Haro Master and a Haro Sport. I'm only talking top tube length. Coincidentally, I'm running a 45mm stem on my rigs now..and it's the exact reach of the old school Group 1 stems from back in the day. Switching from the 17.9" Ten to the 19.3" Voodoo will have you immediately taking note of the differences. Whiplash / steamroller type tricks will have me banging the rear tire of the Voodoo off the ground until I get used to it. And it requires a little more work to get the rear end rotating.
If you are going to be doing strictly old school type tricks, I recommend using a top tube from 18.75" - 19.5"...Or longer if you're into that. I'm just going by the fact that most frames from back in the day had top tube lengths of 18.75 to 19.5..and from modern testing, that's what feels the most comfortable for me. For reference, The 87,88,89 Haro Master top tube was 18.75" and I believe the Kawahara Bravo Pro and the General Osborn Pro had 19.5" top tubes. But the rear triangles on all of them were 15.5-16.5 inches...and longer. Insane. But that whole 18.75-19.5" buzzer zone is the perfect amount of room to utilize the top tube. And with today's shorter rear ends, you can still take advantage of having a shorter wheelbase. The best thing about todays frames is the shorter rear end length and the shorter wheelbase.
I've told a thousand people a longer version of this story..but I used to complain back in '89 that freestyle bikes had the same rear end length as a lot of racing frames. It made no sense to me. I also thought the top tube should be much lower (standover height) and I thought we should be using zero offset forks. It took them well over a decade to start doing it. One of the reasons I went new school was seeing that what I was thinking about those years ago had turned into reality.
I'm finding seat tube angle makes a big difference. My FEC 18.8 tt with 69 degree seat tube and tl stem actually feels roomier than my ares 19.5 tt with 72 degree st and fl stem! I like the low st angle so much that I'm replacing the ares frame with an FEC El Camino 19.5tt with 68 degree st. I'm expecting that to feel super roomy. I ride 21tt on my street bike but have no desire to go over 19.5tt on a flatland bike even though I'm 6'3.
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Last night I switched everything back from my DK Phase frame (20.8" TT) to my We The People Utopia frame (20" TT). I want to start working on pedal to pedal time machines again but have been too nervous to do it on the longer frame hence why I switched back to a shorter frame last night. Was just suppose to be temporary while I get comfortable with the trick.
After today's session I realized I've been thinking wrong for many months now:, the 20" TT is not too short for me. It actually feels really good being back on it. I remember feeling cramped and irritated on it but perhaps my memory has been playing tricks on me because today, my first day back on the utopia, I had an amazing session. I think forcing myself to ride a longer bike caused me to ride differently to compensate and now being back on the shorter frame I feel like I'm actually riding better then ever before.
This is exciting because it opens up a lot of potential frames that I originally thought would be too short for me. I may give a go to something in the 19.5-20" range again, I dunno we'll see. I'm not so much in a hurry to switch frames again.
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Have any of you taller riders tried the Far East Cycles Turbo frame, specifically the longer 19.7" version? If so I'd really like to hear what you think about it. I'm wondering how the 19.7" TT version feels, the 74 degree head tube probably makes it feel a bit shorter than a 75 degree would (at least when riding around in a normal position), alternatively the 69 degree seat tube angle probably makes it feel much longer when holding the seat in front wheel tricks. My concern is that the 69 degree seat angle plus the short 12.65 chain stays puts the seat too far back over the rear wheel making it difficult to maneuver around the seat during back wheel tricks.
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Wow, this is super interesting! To be honest I really wondered how you can ride a 20.8 TT because I personnaly don't think it is good for flatland unless you are Trevor Meyer size :P
What you say about the FEC frame "My concern is that the 69 degree seat angle plus the short 12.65 chain stays puts the seat too far back over the rear wheel making it difficult to maneuver around the seat during back wheel tricks.": I could not agree more. For me that does not make sense. If you ride your seat really low, ok. But a "normal" seat height would lead to the seat being positioned may too much over the backwheel and getting in your way.
To be honest: I think custom is your way... Ask Malo, it is not so expensive. Maybe you should try one more frame (maybe used?) to be really sure what you want.
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Yes, I thinks that's a good idea. Try one more frame in size between the two maybe. This should help give me the best idea about what geometry I like best. Then I can try custom once I've got it figured out.
Daddycool do you have a preference for head tube angle? I think all of my frames over the years have been around 75, the DK was 75.2. I did not like the steeper angle on the DK although 0.2 degrees is a minor change but was still noticeable I think, hard to say for sure because it wasn't the only dimension different. Would be interesting to try two frames with identical dimensions but different head tube angles. Im curious try a little lower than 75 to see what it's like. Maybe 74.5.
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I started "serious" flatland riding with a S&M Dirtbike with platform (because the Homeless Soul Bro was not available and it was basically a longer version of that frame) and the HT was below 74 ° I assume. Than I rode a KHE Catweazle and later a Premium Lagger V1 and these two have also 74 ° if not lower (for all these frames I have never seen official numbers). Then I switched to a Suelo Simpe V1 with 75 ° and it was horrible for a few weeks because my backwheel hit the ground whenever I did any kind of whip (pinky squeaks for example). Later I got used to this and enjoyed how easy I could pop into a hang five or karl cruiser. Then I started to think about my custom frame and wanted to try it out again. I was quite sure that it should not be steeper so I bought a St. Martin "fork riser". Do you know these? You can put it on top of your fork below the lower bearing. In the end your HT gets smaller. I tried the one with -1 ° so I had a 74 ° HT on the Suelo frame. I gave it a try for a couple of sessions and decided that 75 ° is my preference. I can really recommed to use these "fork risers". It is simple and works. The only thing is that you need some spacers underneath your stem that you can remove because otherwise you would change your handlebar height and this would mix too many parameters... There is a version with - 0.5 ° and I believe it is 7 mm high. The only problem will be how to get these... I believe they are out of production for a long time. Ares had a similar product.
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Wow, Pat seems to still have them!
http://flatlandfuel.com/stmartinajforkrisers.aspx (http://flatlandfuel.com/stmartinajforkrisers.aspx)
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It looks like flatlandfuel still has the 14mm (-1 degree)
http://flatlandfuel.com/stmartinajforkrisers.aspx (http://[url=http://flatlandfuel.com/stmartinajforkrisers.aspx)
I've thought about trying one of these, I use a lot of spacers under the stem so it would not be a problem to remove some so that the height of the bars stays the same with the riser installed. My only concern is that my forks are the kind with integrated headset race. The riser should still work ok I think, I'm just not sure if installing the riser will cause any deformation to the integrated headset race when everything is compressed together. If it deforms the race then it might not work so well if I later want to use the forks without the riser. I'm not sure if this is a valid concern though maybe no harm happens to the integrated race.
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Lol yes you beat me to it about flatlandfuel having them
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I started "serious" flatland riding with a S&M Dirtbike with platform (because the Homeless Soul Bro was not available and it was basically a longer version of that frame) and the HT was below 74 ° I assume. Than I rode a KHE Catweazle and later a Premium Lagger V1 and these two have also 74 ° if not lower (for all these frames I have never seen official numbers). Then I switched to a Suelo Simpe V1 with 75 ° and it was horrible for a few weeks because my backwheel hit the ground whenever I did any kind of whip (pinky squeaks for example). Later I got used to this and enjoyed how easy I could pop into a hang five or karl cruiser. Then I started to think about my custom frame and wanted to try it out again. I was quite sure that it should not be steeper so I bought a St. Martin "fork riser". Do you know these? You can put it on top of your fork below the lower bearing. In the end your HT gets smaller. I tried the one with -1 ° so I had a 74 ° HT on the Suelo frame. I gave it a try for a couple of sessions and decided that 75 ° is my preference. I can really recommed to use these "fork risers". It is simple and works. The only thing is that you need some spacers underneath your stem that you can remove because otherwise you would change your handlebar height and this would mix too many parameters... There is a version with - 0.5 ° and I believe it is 7 mm high. The only problem will be how to get these... I believe they are out of production for a long time. Ares had a similar product.
Obviously Dandois is a freak and can ride any bike but his ht angle is 75.5 , probably for all those g turns he does so well. Jumelin is another g turn master. I wonder what his frame geometry is?
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Hi aliasdck, I used the fork riser with a Odyssey Classic Flatland fork which has an integrated race and later removed it again without any problems. The fork riser is made from aluminium so it will hardly damage your fork.
Hi Mambocowboy, I fully agree it seems not to matter for Matthias... I assume he designed his frame with street riders in mind and most of them prefer 75 ° HT and above, but the main difference here is that they ride offset forks! Matthias is riding a minimal (about 15 mm) offset for some years and so maybe 75.5 ° HT with zero offset would feel not so good.
I am almost sure that Alex' frames in the past years were all with 75 ° HT.
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Hi aliasdck, I used the fork riser with a Odyssey Classic Flatland fork which has an integrated race and later removed it again without any problems. The fork riser is made from aluminium so it will hardly damage your fork.
Hi Mambocowboy, I fully agree it seems not to matter for Matthias... I assume he designed his frame with street riders in mind and most of them prefer 75 ° HT and above, but the main difference here is that they ride offset forks! Matthias is riding a minimal (about 15 mm) offset for some years and so maybe 75.5 ° HT with zero offset would feel not so good.
I am almost sure that Alex' frames in the past years were all with 75 ° HT.
Yeah zero offset for Dandois would be nuts because he uses that bike for big drops and pure street at times. He badly injured himself on a drop 360 in San Diego a couple years ago. Landed on the side of his face with no helmet...
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I have those St. Martin risers, both the 7 and the 14 mm versions. They do make your bike feel different. However, I tried to use them with Odyssey Flatware forks, and there is some play on the bearing that sits on top of the riser, no matter how strong you tighten your compression bolt. Later on I tried them with St. Martin AJ forks, and the fit is perfect, no play at all. So they seem to be made specifically for St. Martin forks. I have not tried them with any other brand. Just letting you know.
PS: I also know someone who tried to use them with older, non-integrated forks, and the riser broke after a while. It also seems that there was some play.