I love the geometry, particularly the longer CS. The looks of the frame are even better.
As for the close dropouts, yes-- I only use nankai and that'd be a problem. Second, and less important, I personally don't like the integrated seat clamp, but that is just me.
A 19.25" TT option would be amazing
K
i rode a st martin, a mankind alive and a quamen chyphyr, all of which are narrow diamond frames(which i do like the look of) and i broke the sh*t out of each of 'em in the exact same place, near the head tube. the down tubes buckled on 2 of them and the tt on the quamen. would a gusset eliminate this problem?
I have a frame by PiR made with closed dropouts. While I agree its a neat idea it is as many said already, it is a limitation on what coasters you can use. I have a femaled nankai that I had machined, but most people aren't gonna spend the time to get custom made axles just so they can use it with a specific frame. I got it for the sheer novelty and while I think its neat, its really not needed. If this is going to be a mass produced frame gotta give it full options rather than limiting it with only closed dropouts.
Also why did you decide to go with a mid bb instead of spanish?
Thanks the comment. Do you like the frame without the Enclosed Dropouts?
Sorry but that sucks and you will loose interest as people will like your frame have the money to buy it but wont as they dont want to get a female freecoaster.
Why give people the choice in brakes or no brakes but they can only use a certain freecoaster???
Josh,
I never want to discourage anyone who is interested in cycle design and looking to create.
However, by your drawings and questions regarding market feedback - I think you are currently jumping the gun with your abilities and understanding of design (at the moment). I am not saying you cant do it, but I can see areas where I think it shows an infancy in your understanding. And that if you ever did choose this as a profession in the future, and were to look back at "past work" - you would be able to see this too.
Predicting the future in regards to what parts riders will use is obviously important, especially when thinking along the lines of frame design. But if you are simply planning to go to Standard Byke co. and say, build me this frame and I will re-decal and re-brand them to create my own "company" - I fear you are doomed to fail from the start. As many frame builders like standard have key aspects/detailing to their frames which are often small forms of design signatures if you will. Partially relating to "style" - but also much of the time relating to making life simpler for the builder and reducing cost.
Previously I had asked if you could upload a 2D blueprint, so I could get an idea of to what degree of detailing and information you were planning to send the builder, as this is extremely important. This is not just a drawing that shows TT measurements, but also key other information like tube thickness, angles and so on.
Normally a frame blueprint n 2D usually looks something along the lines of this :
[url]http://www.spanner.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tibridedrawing.JPG[/url] ([url]http://www.spanner.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tibridedrawing.JPG[/url])
If you have something I like this, I would love to have a look over it and help give advice in areas I may be able to.
Again, I really dont want to discourage you and will even go as far to try and help you get a better understanding of areas I think you are lacking. But I really think you are focusing to much on global feedback and not on design. So I would strongly suggest that you now reduce your reliance on customer feedback as you have enough of that, and focus more on the design aspects to see if you and your friends can think of new ideas as this is what really gets people excited as it leads to a product with the marketing power of being able to offer something that is different, and not the same old thing but with a 1/4" longer or shorter somewhere.
enclosed dropouts might work for street/ park bikes but for flatland? ...
not many people i know off would do grinds on a flat-specific bike as it's 1) too twitchy; 2) voids warrenty; 3) too weak and light to endear confidence.
if you said the enclosed dropouts were meant to prevent the slots from spreading open, i'll buy that as i've seen that happening with paper thin, machined internally dropouts that you find on new bikes.
have drop out slots horizontally, but enclosed? with stamped cut away lines for 14mm and 10mm of course.
female hubs might be all the rage, but till you suffer the anguish of have a broken bolt or rounded-off hex-head that is stuck in the hub that is still on the frame, you will never appreciate the beautiful simplicity of the standard 'normal' axle.
just imagining having to use a sabre saw or hack saw to cut through the harden-steel of 22mm sized lock nuts to get to the 10mm bolt, with the wheel on one side and peg on the other gives me the shivers... and remember as the dropout is enclosed, you can't use a mallet to bash the wheel out like you would with a 'normal' sloted dropout and male axle.
byke you're such a dream crusher. ;Dhaha
Did someone just as Byke what his credentials in frame building were?
Hilarious.
dude i was just shreddingi rode a st martin, a mankind alive and a quamen chyphyr, all of which are narrow diamond frames(which i do like the look of) and i broke the sh*t out of each of 'em in the exact same place, near the head tube. the down tubes buckled on 2 of them and the tt on the quamen. would a gusset eliminate this problem?
For them possibly. How & who these frames will be built by and the type of material will not require gussets but the strength problem with those frames in those particular areas will be discussed.
What were you doing when those broke? And the down tube buckled on 2 of em?! WOW.
I dont want to be the Simon Cowell of flatland.... Maybe one of Dragons Den .... ;)
i think it looks great and i think the enclosed dropouts are a nice idea, id rather use a female coaster (i do now) than a male axle but thats just my opinionThanks xsjadorider!
not to be nasty but if your in the BMX market and dont know much about byke, how long have you been in the BMX industry?
Have you seen his last two frames he designed? Oh and the swiss miss KHE bars too :-*
He is the best help around. He may not be a welder (but knows tonnes about the properties though) but he knows alot about bicycle engineering.
He loves BMX and will do alot to help others. yes you are seeing it from a business side but someone with his knowledge and years of input onto BMX I would jump for his help.
I dont want to be the Simon Cowell of flatland.... Maybe one of Dragons Den .... ;)
I always thought Simon Cowell knows sh*t all about music, hes just a rich man who owes a label.
Back to thread.
About the frame... Me personally dont like the closed dropouts and the idea of the 3 sizes sounds good.
I think best toptube options are 18.5 19 and 19.5 seem like the average sizes now to be a unique frame fnd the most popular frames use those toptubes and make it better and I agree with everone on the dropouts the only hub I knowis infinty which is heavy and khe which I much more expensive I know aot who have the ufree and seem to be the freecoaster in use now also this being a flat frame I don't think going open dropouts wll sacriface strength
stranger coastersarus and infinity flow are probly the same. are semi-female (hermaphrodite?) - have shorten 14mm axle sticking out like those 10mm mtb's skewer types hubs; can't use enclosed dropouts with them.
stranger coastersarus and infinity flow are probly the same. are semi-female (hermaphrodite?) - have shorten 14mm axle sticking out like those 10mm mtb's skewer types hubs; can't use enclosed dropouts with them.
Those aren't too female then. lol Why do they do this when you can have a regular axle? Isn't that all it is only the 14mm axle is hollowed out for 3/8" bolts?lol Regular female axles are just as strong...
i think it's the st. martin's darwin freecoaster - heavier and $10 more expensive.
I don't think you could use enclosed dropouts with any ladyboy axle free-coasters. It would be too hard to spread the frame to get the axle in.
I have a Stranger Coastersaurus at the moment and I can't spread my frame to make the wheel fall out of the dropouts. I still have to slide it out like a normal axle.
" Also, you can see they’ve gone with a female style axle, which seems to be the way of the future for bmx."
Check the first two pics in the link.
Female axles are not the future. I love female axles but saying they are the future is a huge stretch. It is a nice alternative, if anything. They have been around forever and have caught on a bit, but you have some people who don't trust it on the rear at all. I stated before in this thread I have these dropouts on my custom PiR frame and while it is nice it is more trouble than it is worth. KHE female replacements are currently a pain in the ass to get (many people have already broken or stripped their greyhound axles), and modifying nankai bamboo axles isnt cheap either. I recently snapped my inner female axle for my bamboo and have to run a front wheel in the rear because I can't afford a new female axle ($40 for new axle as well as labor for female conversion) and not many people have spare female backup hubs.
I am also curious to know where you get this idea that the closed dropout is stronger, couldn't you just make the dropout thicker if your concerned about dropout strength?
@deadwing:
wow, am really surprise that you snapped the modded 14mm bamboo axle. can you elaborate where it broke at and speculate why; and to (if it's not too much trouble) post pixs?
thanks.
Aside from the drop outs, the frame looks like any other frame coming out now. Modern Bikes appears to be an appropriate company name.
Female axles are not the future. I love female axles but saying they are the future is a huge stretch. It is a nice alternative, if anything. They have been around forever and have caught on a bit, but you have some people who don't trust it on the rear at all. I stated before in this thread I have these dropouts on my custom PiR frame and while it is nice it is more trouble than it is worth. KHE female replacements are currently a pain in the ass to get (many people have already broken or stripped their greyhound axles), and modifying nankai bamboo axles isnt cheap either. I recently snapped my inner female axle for my bamboo and have to run a front wheel in the rear because I can't afford a new female axle ($40 for new axle as well as labor for female conversion) and not many people have spare female backup hubs.
I am also curious to know where you get this idea that the closed dropout is stronger, couldn't you just make the dropout thicker if your concerned about dropout strength?m
I don't know if people are breaking dropouts but they are pinching from being so thin.
So your limiting your audience even more. And grinding 10mm to 14mm isnt to bad with an angle grinder on open dropouts.
With closed there will be 2 bastard end to round of. AND you cant get an angle grinder in there to make the job quicker.
And I bet your warranty wont cover if the the dropouts are cut open.
SO...
If you want his frame you need a female freecoaster and 10mm axles and if you want to have 14mm you HAVE to use a file.
You sir are making a frame for the public not yourself.
So you have just lost a customer.
@deadwing:
thanks for the write-up and pixs.
@bri-jon:
though i agree with you (read my earlier posts), at end of the day, it's his bike and company.
go easy on him will you, don't crush his dream even before it becomes reality...
@joshua s:
nothing but best wishes for you and your upcoming frame/ bike. post pixs once it's done!
thanks
I never opened my closed dropouts on my PiR frame because I don't have the correct tools and don't feel like messing around with it. Its not a huge deal to me, as I plan to try out a Stranger Freecoaster and cut the 14mm that sits in the dropout down so it works with my 3/8th dropouts.I will do my best for you guys to make female replacement axles. And Deadwing, would you mind sharing how you made a female axle for your Nankai? Maybe PM me? Thanks!
And as for putting some more female axle parts out on the market, yes please. For Nankai & KHE. Female axles are not for everyone, however there are some people who really would love these sorts of axle alternatives.
uh, the stranger coastersaurus would be identical to the infinity flow freecoaster i assume?
both ends of the 14mm axle has allen key slot machined in; i think it's to enable the rider to tighten/ loosen the lock nuts to do internal adjustments.
if you machine away the ends to convert it to a true female hub, i think it might impair your ablity to service your hubs by making the allen key slots too shallow for you to apply any torque.
think twice...
That would only effect adjusting the slack externally. All the adjusting would have to be done internally if this is cut. Also may just get another Nankai axle made. Undecided.
Hey buddy, great to see things moving along for you. I remember a while back when you were just starting all this. Keep pushing forward, things are looking great. I do think you should drop the enclosed drop out though because in reality there is no advantage strenght wise.
With thats said i do feel bad for you trying to build for this market. These guys here are the most critical and hardest to please i've ever seen in my life, most who have not even a clue to the products they buy and how they are built. Who would think that a aluminum ANYTHING on a hub settup, be it hub insert, axle, nut or what have you, as being a good design and wouldnt fail? I think your tallents might be better off served up somewhere else. Just look at all the crap parts makers get for creating parts over the years and these are well established companies who have been doing it for years.
It looks like you are really passionate about pushing things forward and i wish you the best of luck. Just take most of what you read here with a grain of salt. Use what info you can and ignor the rest.
Take care
^ Snappy snappy.
Quite an unusual name for a frame. Is there a backstory on that?Yes, If you know Isaiah he's very family oriented, and he wanted to name it after kids. Li-Rai is abbreviations of his 2 daughter's names.
I agree with Bri-Jon, i don't think i have ever seen a bent drop out in Flatland. I could see it with some of the frames with 3mm/4mm thick drop outs but i still haven't seen it happen. Also, again.. How many Female Freecoasters are there? There are a few She-male ones which are 14mm in the drop out & i think KHE does a She-male one that's cut off completely to work with 3/8ths bolts (?) So that's one at my count that could be used with this frame. The FBM made one, my suggestions are to dump the removable mounts or at least offer a brakeless version. Also raise the top tube slightly, with a slightly longer seat tube the top tube & seat stays will be perfectly in line which for me is more of an aesthetic thing but looks nicer tbh. 14mm drop outs are a huge plus! Props for that!
Integrated chain tensioners ?Yeah, we can do that. Which type are you referring to? The welded on threaded "tab" with bolt, tapped dropouts, or some you've designed?
What is the Stand Over Height / Seat Tube Length? I personally would think with a 19.25"/19.5" Top Tube Frame it should be around 6.75"/7" Stand Over wise. I Love the look of the FBM one. How much are these gunna cost? I have a Custom FBM & i was looking into getting another specifically for Flat but i just couldn't afford the price tag when it came to it sadly. I see the custom badge on the down tube are these going to be made to order or are you working with FBM to get a whole batch of the frames made? Which should bring down how much you pay for them thus bringing down what we the customer will pay for them.
Sounds good to me.. With the Stand over height. I might have gone a little too big then! If they're 5.5 i feel purely for Aesthetics it needs to be lifted slightly. 5.75" maybe 6" ? I just don't like that the top tube & seat stays are not in perfect symmetry. I really like the FBM version 19.5" with a slightly higher top tube & brakeless i could see myself ordering one! I'm in search of the perfect Flatland Frame & the 14mm drop outs are on my list of needed options.Your requests are possible. Especially for the Li-Rai (longer version) I think we can come close or exactly to what you specified. Since it's built for flat but can be ridden for park etc. the stand over could be higher...
I'm looking for a name to add to the longer version of the Li-Rai so people will be able to distinguish between the two frames... "Li-Rai Freestyle", "Li-Rai Free"...
Li-RAI (longer version)
I know its pretty boring but you could simply call it the Li-Rai XL or Long or something like that? I'll have to wait & see the final specs & price tag. I will have a think about this frame!
Big Li-Rai
Li-Rai II
Li-RAI (longer version)
what is that?
It's a FBM badge. They won't be on the production models or further protos. That gave me some ideas though...
Its badge welded on by FBM it says hand crafted in new york FBM BMX & a number of how many custom frames they've got to. My Custom FBM has a badge in the same place. Mines number 167! As its a "Proto" if you want to say. FBM have seen it as a custom as it is technically a custom one off so it got the badge. The Production ones will not have it as they will be made in a batch of say 15 frames.
I know its pretty boring but you could simply call it the Li-Rai XL or Long or something like that? I'll have to wait & see the final specs & price tag. I will have a think about this frame!
Modern Bikes "Li-Rai Suppergiu Grande"
Extra Large in Italian, I thought of Italian as its kinda a fancy language & the "Suppergiu Grande" sounds sporty lol ;D
Su-Par-gshe-o I believe is the correct pronunciation, when i think about it now.. It looks badass on paper but whats the point in having a Frame name that probably 12% of the worlds population can pronounce lol!
I didn't mean the extra name to distinguish between the two frames, i meant my choice of add on. I meant if people cannot pronounce the Italian words i chose to go with the Li-Rai it would be annoying for the owner. "Its a Modern Bikes Li-Rai, errm i have no idea how to pronounce the next bit!"
I have another one though...
Li-Rai J'adore - J'adore is I Love in French.. So not only does it distinguish the longer frame from the shorter one but it kinda ties in with using his daughters names for the frames name..
I Love Li-Rai
What do you think about that one?
"Li-Rai J'adore" Sounds ok
J'adore is I Love in French.. So not only does it distinguish the longer frame from the shorter one but it kinda ties in with using his daughters names for the frames name..
The best name that is suggested will be selected for the name of this frame. And will also win a free t-shirt!the Juggernaut
J'adore is I Love in French.. So not only does it distinguish the longer frame from the shorter one but it kinda ties in with using his daughters names for the frames name..
unfortunately that's not that simple, you rarely use "j'adore" when it's about people, specially when it's about relatives like your children. To make it short, there is a lot of possiblilities to say "I love" in french and each of them show slight differences and is appropriate or not, depending the meaning of your message.
If you talk about your childrens and if you want to say that you love them, specially with a message, you might say : "Li-Ray, je vous aime" but that's still weird though..
Dude, that's a perfume commercial... It hasn't been used for a bike part. Plus the word can be used anywhere for anything. Their full name is "Dior J'adore". We're just trying to figure out a name for the frame. J'adore is just a french word means "I love". But thanks for the info though and yeah it might not be the best choice for US made part name...but don't give up on names for this frame. Doesn't matter if it's outlandish/different language/ etc. etc. etc. I mean Li-Rai came from two children's names! :)"Li-Rai J'adore" Sounds ok
mdr c'est tout pourri comme nom de cadre !!
"lol that is a rotten as a frame name !!" hahaha!
don't want to be a dick but that sucks as a bike part name ??? :) , and really not appropriate on a said US made stuff..
and that's already used!! so not original.
The best name that is suggested will be selected for the name of this frame. And will also win a free t-shirt!the Juggernaut
jug·ger·naut (jgr-nôt)
n.
1. Something, such as a belief or institution, that elicits blind and destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed.
2. An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path: "It doesn't assume that people need necessarily remain passive when confronted by what appears to be the juggernaut of history" (Christopher Lehmann-Haupt).
3. Juggernaut Used as a title for the Hindu deity Krishna
J'adore is I Love in French.. So not only does it distinguish the longer frame from the shorter one but it kinda ties in with using his daughters names for the frames name..
unfortunately that's not that simple, you rarely use "j'adore" when it's about people, specially when it's about relatives like your children. To make it short, there is a lot of possiblilities to say "I love" in french and each of them show slight differences and is appropriate or not, depending the meaning of your message.
If you talk about your childrens and if you want to say that you love them, specially with a message, you might say : "Li-Ray, je vous aime" but that's still weird though..
Well that i did not know! Doesn't really work to well does it haha!
Cool :)