Global-flat.com Board
English => General Flatland Forum => Topic started by: byke on January 16, 2012, 12:49:18 PM
-
Could the current shape in bikes be hindering new blood?
In recent years we have seen trends in the flatland world, where bicycle parts and styles are more consistent with those of other parts (example : street parts, simple frames etc etc ) but do you think this could be having a negative effect on attracting new riders?
Could the unique shape of bendy tubes, platforms, the complexity of gyros, The zero sweep kneesavers of yesteryear and the style of bikes and parts that set flatland apart in the past. Be a factor to why we may be currently looking like a sport with a lack of new riders?
I am also wondering with the trend of being brakeless if its having a negative effect on new riders in regards to making it harder to learn the basic tricks so that an even smaller percentage of new riders are sticking with it.
Don't get me wrong, I like new school.
And have seen many trends and styles come and go as part of evolution.
But I wonder, if the current progression trends are hindering attracting new riders.?
-
Intersting- I prefer the older style of bike- haro hutch etc. I tried riding some of the new frames but did not feel comfortable. The only new school frame that I have ridden thst suits me is the hoffman strowler. Flatland is a differnt animal now. I am not against progression but I just prefer the classics.
-
if people don't pick up on flatland because of the look of parts or because it's too hard then they don't belong. swim upstream. oh wait, actually they just post on global all the time instead of riding
-
interesting question, but i think that what keeps flatland so unpopular, is that it is just difficult in itself, it just takes awfully long to learn...
I don't believe that riding with breaks is easier than riding without, it is just a different way of riding.
I fear that Flatland will remain like it is for a long time, with only a few riders.
-
Flatlanders need to get off the idea that Part X will make them better at trick Y. Or Part X will prevent them from doing Trick Y. Flatlanders need to get off their asses and stop coming up with excuses.
There are riders out there who ride old school bikes and kill it and riders who ride new school bikes and kill it. This should be enough evidence that its not what you ride its what you put in riding. But if you want go buy the 9000th revision of the same part or frame because it will make "Trick Y's more easier" go for it.
-
Do we know that we are hindering new blood or is this speculation?
If you “need” a flat bike to ride flatland then I think riders are at a loss. If you can ride anything on a progressive street frame, well, I think that opens a riders thoughts up and creates more riders and many more tools for him to use. Maybe more specific flatland parts push riders away... I know my LBS likes me on a strait tube frame with 2 pc bars because I can relate more to the average kid/ rider(my bike looks like theirs). I think if the new kid can go home after watching me pull a combo and try it out on his street ride, thats much more powerful than having him believe he has to build a whole other bike, just to try. Couple of pegs and go! I've turned at least 5-6 riders around in my hood just in the last 6 months that way. They don't stay with it but that's because they don't have focus and it's hard, not because they don't have a "flatland bike". I think being set apart, when you are a kid, is kind of a bad thing; looking like everyone else is "cool".
-
i don't think it's hurting new riders, but it's definitely hurting flat only companies. the longer, double diamond frames are easy to get from fly and many others in a 19.8-20" range so why would someone spend 369-399 for a flat specific lil guy when they can go with an S&M or fly. same applies for 2 piece bars.
Just my opinion...
:P
-
"Could the current shape in bikes be hindering new blood?"
NO. I think they come on here and see no one having any fun. It's stale, meaning this Forum. Check out how "Cool and Hip" The Come up is, hell, even the Museum has fun . People post things to get others involved on here and no one even bothers themselves to reply if it isn't Flat oriented. Point is, there is MORE to life than flat and "I think" thats what they want, people get dogged when they're a "NEWB" to this site and buy a nice new Pro grade bike. Why?: It's their money.....
Bottom line? Have some fun in OPEN TALK people.
The vids are also Great to get kids hyped.
Post your bikes, we all like pics.
If you have an OPINION ,POST IT!
Everyone is been getting along for months just run with it and have some fun from the sh!tstorm we call LIFE... pic related.
-
I think the new trends in bike design and trick styles signal a slow, but sure merging into street. The street and flatland bikes look very similar now. You have street dudes learning hang5's, hang nothings, nose wheelies, etc. Then you flatland guys doing a lot of half cab whopper type tricks. In the future a new kid on the scene may get a bike that's the most versatile and affordable. Then you'll have kids learning jumps, some grinds, and a few flatland tricks that are relevant to street and that will be pretty much it.
Meanwhile, it may be that cross footed hitchhikers and time machines, long combos etc. will be reserved for the small, aging community of flatland specific riders out there that will keep progressing with flatland as we know it today.
-
Do we know that we are hindering new blood or is this speculation?
Purely speculation.
However, anyone who looks at the stats for this site over the past few years can see there has been a dramatic decline of both visitors and posters. Which could indicate we are seeing a steady decline.
http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?action=stats (http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?action=stats)
-
I think today's generation has little attention span, and less patience to learn than riders in the past. Flatland is not instant gratification, and that is prolly our biggest downfall as far as attracting new riders. Right now people post status updates from their phone during every conceivable daily event and expect that feedback. A sport where you can go a year without really anything awesome to show, I think is not very attractive to this mindset.
It just looks "too hard".
as for the streetish trend in parts now, it could go either way. you could say that it makes flatland more accessible, or you could argue that it makes us less distinct, and so, less appealing. time will tell i guess.
/oldmanrant
-
Do we know that we are hindering new blood or is this speculation?
Purely speculation.
However, anyone who looks at the stats for this site over the past few years can see there has been a dramatic decline of both visitors and posters. Which could indicate we are seeing a steady decline.
[url]http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?action=stats[/url] ([url]http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?action=stats[/url])
i seriously doubt there's a causal connection between the number of flatland riders and the number of hits the forum gets
-
flatland is a small community, and has always been. And always will be.
my intuition is that it's not dying, and that there is some benefit to be gained from the merging of flatland and street. Flatland will take advantage of that inspiration and feed from it, riders should see it as a chance to refresh things a little, shouldn't think of it as a threat because it's not.
riders like alex jumelin for example show that you can still have flatland looking like flatland while using a street trick as a strong base (nose wheelie, wich i see now as a treet trick eventhough i think it comes nore from flatland but that's long time ago when both disciplines were really close.)
Anyway i think it's all very positive.
-
Do we know that we are hindering new blood or is this speculation?
Purely speculation.
However, anyone who looks at the stats for this site over the past few years can see there has been a dramatic decline of both visitors and posters. Which could indicate we are seeing a steady decline.
[url]http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?action=stats[/url] ([url]http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?action=stats[/url])
i seriously doubt there's a causal connection between the number of flatland riders and the number of hits the forum gets
you re right, riders stay in contact in other ways, with Facebook for example. forums are getting oldschool ? ;)
-
My take is nothing you buy (frame, stem, hub, etc.) will make flatland easier. But it doesn't stop us from buying a new frame or bars. And I have a lot of bars.
It looks like the same thing that happened in skating. Flatland boards were small twin kick tail deals. Ramp boards and street boards were wide and bullet shaped. Street got more technical and started to incorporate kick flips, shuvits that were developed in flatland. The Vision Double Blind was born. An intersection of a flatland deck with the width of a street deck.
Now you see a lot of hang 5 or pedal hang 5's in street and flatlanders doing street/flat like M Dandios. The bikes have caught up, 19+ TT and straight tubes. Not quite the 21" TT 29" wide handle bars but something right in the middle.
Did I get off topic?
-
Interesting, last year had the most new members join, but overall downward trend in online postings.
-
NO. I think they come on here and see no one having any fun. It's stale, meaning this Forum. Check out how "Cool and Hip" The Come up is, hell, even the Museum has fun . People post things to get others involved on here and no one even bothers themselves to reply if it isn't Flat oriented. Point is, there is MORE to life than flat and "I think" thats what they want, people get dogged when they're a "NEWB" to this site and buy a nice new Pro grade bike. Why?: It's their money.....
Bottom line? Have some fun in OPEN TALK people.
The vids are also Great to get kids hyped.
Post your bikes, we all like pics.
If you have an OPINION ,POST IT!
Everyone is been getting along for months just run with it and have some fun from the sh!tstorm we call LIFE... pic related.
good post juggernaut.
as for having time to commit to flatland, going to college working racing bmx all take up alot of time. For me flatland is just having fun on my bike now. But I used to ride night and day on a daily basis in my younger days. I just found the most embarassing picture ever. 1986 -pink le trigre shirt hawaian shorts and vans. Yes I wll scan and post it later. But i remeber the bike well kuwie bravo KT, freecoaster flight cranks (I thnk ) and dyno pretzel bars. I do miss those days but hey you get older and this thing called responsiblity sets in.
-
It is what it is...riders ride, riders buy new parts, companies think they can re-invent the wheel, tight pants street tricks, scuffing in JNCO's...
Flatland won't die...it just goes in circles in trends. It is what you make of it. All good in my book.
-
could the current idiocy in topic subjects be hindering new members?
-
could the current idiocy in topic subjects be hindering new members?
or posts, like this negativity? C'mon guys, have some fun. ;D
-
dubstep ruined flatland.
-
I remember being in grade/high school looking at flatland bikes thinking it'd be cool to get a flatland bike. Thus, my double edged sword theory:
Bringing new riders to the sport with cool looking frames, parts (8pc bars, drilled pegs) and colors. However, these may not necessarily be parts that many of us would ride.
but....
the increased cost in fabrication of pretzel frames and complex parts would make it less accessible to beginners (budget!).
-
If we look at kids bikes aimed at the cheaper end, where many kids start or are introduced to BMX.
You will see that often the best selling bikes feature the following features. (aimed at kids, not flatlanders)
U-brakes
Gyro
Fat pegs
48 spoke wheels
Fat tires
Sometimes a layback seatpost
Knee saver bars
Frames that have predomeinent features, such as big tubes or platforms etc.
This style has been evolving for many years, and the features on such bikes that have little to do with current newschool flatland trends (past and present) but features what I believe capture younger riders imagination and manufacturers have found appeal to younger customers.
If we look at bikes like the eastern shock, we may dismiss them as childrens bikes and recomend other bikes for beginners entering flatland. But I wonder how many kids go into a bike shop and see such bikes with such noticeable distinctions compared to other regular straight framed @ 2pc bar bikes. That their own self imagination, and the idea that this style of bikes look more "hi-tech" or special.
Now what if these bikes have helped kids get into BMX ... But it was features like the gyro or special frame shape that has helped lead kids into the start of basic ground tricks ? Simply because they wanted to test out such features and learning ground based tricks seemed the logical first step......
Example I can see a kid trying to ride forwards and attempt to turn the bars 180 in a way to utilise the gyro, more than a kid a kid setting up a plank and bricks (ramp) to attempt bar spin jumps on say a new school brakeless style BMX.
-
I don't have the answer...but Florent Soulas will save us..
Florent Soulas - Foundation 2012 (http://vimeo.com/35014053)
-
dubstep ruined flatland.
Actually the internet ruined flatland.
-
dubstep ruined flatland.
BullS*%T! ;D
Country Music did!
-
I don't have the answer...but Florent Soulas will save us..
Florent Soulas - Foundation 2012 ([url]http://vimeo.com/35014053[/url])
Amazing video .....
Cant stand that track though, it seems to be the generic track for any X sport nowadays.
dubstep ruined flatland.
BullS*%T! ;D
Country Music did!
No one killed flatland, its just too many of us have grown up and the next generation dont wanna dance (maybe the tune we oldies dance to, just doesn't appeal any more - like someones dad dancing at a friends party .... cringe ).
-
Back on topic. The techier street setups and riding styles are opening up the eyes and minds to flatland I believe.
However, more traditional flatland is being limited by the current bike setups quite a bit. Brakeless, low tt, no platforms all make decades harder to the point where a single decade is recognized as fairly legitimate trick. 15 years ago a single decade was just one of the easiest stylish rideouts to more complicated scuffing, switching, and/or rolling combos. A double was recognized as something legit. Sure the pumping, pivoting and turbining stuff has been pushed quite far in terms of difficulty but isn't that just getting better at Fewer Techniques? and is that actually growing the tricktionaries??
-
Oh I know........ I was kidden. All though country kills every thing. ;D
I will tell you this, From my point of view. I started to ride flat back in '98. First bike was a dyno comp. I then saved up enough and bought a '99 GT Show. (still have it) I recently got back into riding after taking 10 or so years off. (due to breaking the head tube off the Show and real life stuff) I had the head tube welded back on and rebuilt it, rode it for a few weeks. Mind you I was totally out of the Loop on anything BMX related.
And then it happened! My friend let me ride his street bike and I was amazed that 1. how light it was and 2. You could ride flat with it.
So I set out to build a "new School" bike. (front and rear brakes are a must) I built a Suelo Simple V3 and I love it. It feels way better than the Show ever did. And it weighs at lest 8-10 pounds lighter.
Bottom line is, I don't think Frame styling or parts are hurting flatland. I think the trend following that people do hurts it more than anything. (I.e. Rider A rides Brake-less and does not scuff. Therefore if rider B has brakes and scuffs, he sucks.)
Also A lack of support for newer riders and Bickering between riders. (on this forum bickering is over the top) I google searched and found this forum. The first this I saw was, T.J. against juggs. Then if you dig deeper you will find the recent crap about that girl. Which then turned into a slug fest against Mutt.
So yeah the first thing a new person sees is that we cant get along.
Hell I am even kinda stand offish about posting this.
So lets have fun, Smile, don't be too serious and go have fun riding your bike!
/wall o text
-
Well, look at it this way. There is a 14 year old kid that likes Bikes, BMX and riding. He wants to buy a bike. He wants something cool, fun and it will make him want to ride better. Look at these choices:
http://flatlandfuel.com/stmartin2011darwincompletebike.aspx (http://flatlandfuel.com/stmartin2011darwincompletebike.aspx)
http://www.danscomp.com/showfullimage.php?type=products&image=102141.gif# (http://www.danscomp.com/showfullimage.php?type=products&image=102141.gif#)
Now which bike is the average kid going to like? What looks more fun? What won't his friends make fun of? What is good for riding the neighborhood and all types of BMX?
-
I THINK IT IS THE STYLE ALSO AND NOT ONLY THE PARTS AND FRAMES..
I MEAN GOING TOTALLY BRAKE LESS AND THE OTHER CRAZY STYLES GOING
ON..
I STILL USE THE DYLAN BARS FROM RYAL GOODS AND BRICK HOUSE STEM AND
BAR ENDS,SUELO PEGS SET AND MAGNASIUM PROFILE 160MM CRANKS,ALL YOU CAN
NOT GET OR HARD TO FIND THESE PARTS SO YEAH I AM A BIT OLD SCHOOL IN THIS
WAY...
THERE IS THIS KID HERE IN NOR-CAL,NICK AND HE IS RIDING FLATLAND PEGLESS
LIKE CHAD JOHNSON AND THAT IS VERY COOL,BUT PUTS THE BARS WAY HIGH FOR
THOSE STARTING OUT IN THE STYLES THAT ARE BEING DONE BY NEW RIDERS!
HE IS THE NEW BLOOD YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT,BUT HOW HE IS STARTING OUT IS
WAY HARD AND HINDERS THE TYPE OF RIDERS COMING INTO FLATLAND!
-
THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE:IT IS JUST NOT THE SHAPE OF THE FRAME IN LENGTH
AND WAY IT IS BUILT IN SHAPE AND FEATURES AND ALSO THE PARTS ETC....BUT ALSO
THE STYLE WHICH GOES BACK TO THE STREET STYLE RIDING AND FLATLAND IS
BECOMING A BIT MORE STREET ORIGINATED IN THE TYPE OF RIDING WHICH HINDERS
NEW BLOOD FLATLANDERS IN BOTH PARTS AND STYLES!
-
Back on topic. The techier street setups and riding styles are opening up the eyes and minds to flatland I believe.
However, more traditional flatland is being limited by the current bike setups quite a bit. Brakeless, low tt, no platforms all make decades harder to the point where a single decade is recognized as fairly legitimate trick. 15 years ago a single decade was just one of the easiest stylish rideouts to more complicated scuffing, switching, and/or rolling combos. A double was recognized as something legit. Sure the pumping, pivoting and turbining stuff has been pushed quite far in terms of difficulty but isn't that just getting better at Fewer Techniques? and is that actually growing the tricktionaries??
I've been watching KJ vids on FB and it really makes me want to go back to the "older" days of my riding.
-
Don't forget that people are slamming their seats so far these days that cliffhanger tricks are now ruled out.
It seems to be some sort of collective evolution towards merging back to street. (tricks,setups,equipment,videos,etc)
I see a lot of these flatland dudes repping with street dudes to make sure that they are included with team sponsorships. And they do things that the rest of "BMX" can understand. Not saying that's wrong, they are just doing what needs to be done to stay in the game. The more they merge, the more opportunities on one hand b/c its all seen as bmx....And also more chance for street dudes to participate in flat, but not flat as we knew it pre-2006. They participate in this "streetlanding" style of 2012...
That pre-2006 flatland style is for old dudes like me. LOL!
-
Back on topic. The techier street setups and riding styles are opening up the eyes and minds to flatland I believe.
However, more traditional flatland is being limited by the current bike setups quite a bit. Brakeless, low tt, no platforms all make decades harder to the point where a single decade is recognized as fairly legitimate trick. 15 years ago a single decade was just one of the easiest stylish rideouts to more complicated scuffing, switching, and/or rolling combos. A double was recognized as something legit. Sure the pumping, pivoting and turbining stuff has been pushed quite far in terms of difficulty but isn't that just getting better at Fewer Techniques? and is that actually growing the tricktionaries??
I've been watching KJ vids on FB and it really makes me want to go back to the "older" days of my riding.
+1
And why not, dude is legit. He doesn't limit himself to one style of trick(or riding, really), or technique, or style of parts or bikes. He rides. That's what looks fun to me. Bustin out, no matter what.
-
Bobby
slamming one's seat,no pegs,totally brake less or whatever,well
that is a type of style or bike setup and yes it hinders some type
of riding like i pointed out and also the type of frames and parts
also..which i agree on but it is is not just the frames and parts
designed..it is more complicated than that!
-
Instant gratification and the quest for it is what is limiting flatland. A kid sees flatland videos, thinks maybe he can bust it...gets a bike with no brakes and thinks that all flatland is pumping, whirling, tornado of tricks. He tries, and tries, and tries...and gets discouraged when he can't do the stuff he sees, never realizing that you have to practice 10 hours a day, for years to get anywhere near as good as the slew of YouTube videos he sees. Flatland hung its own self when it progressed so far, and only one way of riding is seen as hip, or cool...or whatever they kids are calling it these days, lol. You got to learn to crawl, before you can sprint. Hell, I've been back at it for 3 years now...and I'm still 20 years behind, lol.
-
yeah and we still ride but the new riders do not enter
stalemate if you ask me!!
-
I've heard this debate in various ways ever since I started riding over ten years ago...
Bikes don't generally hinder people, assuming you're riding a bike you're comfortable on your set up shouldn't hinder you that much if you know which direction you want to take riding. I use the word "hinder" because I see people talking about limitations but I think they're referring to being hindered in some way. Lots of riders put limitations on themselves, it's healthy, whether it's by riding more street influenced bikes because they're stronger/more comfortable or riding brakeless or riding pegless.. None of these limitations are bad if you're motivated to ride and learn.
Why? I can totally see why guys put limitations on riding, because the sheer amount of directions you can take riding is overwhelming. Chad J is peg less, by shutting himself off doing peg tricks he can focus on the infinite possibilities he can come up with in peg less riding.
Don't blame it on the bikes, in my opinion they're more refined than ever. Any techniques you've seen in the past are either being done still or can be explored by anyone at anytime. I rode 1 inch headsets, front/back brakes, double fronts, pretzel frames, not pretzel frames, etc etc etc... Now I ride a brake less double diamond frame with a lower Odyssey senior seat and I've personally never felt better about riding and all the possibilities available to me.
What may be missing from a lot of riders these days is the real hunger to progress and get better. Whether that be lack of time or lack of initiative is a case by case scenario judgement call, but if you want to progress and get good you can make it happen.
-
SLACKNESS
YEAH I SEE IT HERE ALL THE TIME!!
THE EXCUSES START HERE->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
-
i think it has more to do with the additude of flat riders in general. here is an example, it was my first time at a very big jam (wont say which one but it is pretty big), a certain promenent rider comes up to me, says some sh!t i cant remember, then flicks his blunt roach at my front wheel without me even saying a word. had this person not been liked by most around me, i would have knocked him clean out. maybe i wasnt riding enough for him and he thought i was a slacker. i was so amazed to see so many good riders, i just wanted to take in what i was seeing and not hide in the corner riding like i do at my home spot paying no attention to the folks around me. i am an adult so i let this incident slide but i could'nt help but to think what this would do to a younger guy who maybe looked up to this person had he done it to them. i even looked up to him before that happened.
another example would be again, another very promenet rider not so much in the spot light anymore but bad ass pro none the less, he has attacked me on various levels from the tricks i do or the time i was able to spend and ride with him. our lives being so different it was difficult for me to ride with him as much as he would like, even though i still rode as much as always, just not as much with him......and this guy was a good freind of mine which i've known for a long time.
these are not your average riders either, they are pro's or riders who hold a very high standing in flatland. so again, i thinks it's rider additude from what i see and have experianced on this forum and on the lot. this has left me feeling completely dettached from the flatland comunity. i am fine with that since this is something i do for me and dont feel the need to be part of "the group".
-
i bought a deja vu especially because it had a bend in a tube lol.
i've met a few street riders (both teenagers and young kids) and not one has verbally abused me for riding a flatland bike. sure, they find it amusing, but they're always friendly abut it and love it when i do a forkglide in front of them :P
i met a street rider at a skatepark and turns out he lives a few streets away from me, who saw my bike in the uni before i even met him and he said he stopped riding and looked at my bike for a good 10mins and loved my setup lol
that being said, i am far from embarrassed at riding my flat bike in the skatepark or around the uni in front of a few hundred sophisticats
-
Despite all the trick and equipment design trends, I still think the main two barriers to entry is difficulty (very slow learning curve) and expense. Parts and frames and tires are getting more expensive these days in general. Then after that, maintenance is also an issue. Parts aren't always compatible an fit properly, etc. Basically, people want to go out and have fun with their friends easily. Not pay a lot of money to sit by themselves, trying to get good at something that takes years to get to a decent level.
-
While I dont disagree that learning flat can be discouraging and hard ..... (and a nice way to boost flatlanders own self consciousness and self values) it doesnt take away from the fact that unless kids try flatland they wont know.
And thats the point.
If flat looking bikes in the stores were attractive to everyday kids (as they were) and we saw lets say 1000 bikes sold every year (example) and out of those we then saw (example) 10 riders who looked at the bikes they had and attempted to ride flat on them and stuck with ......
Then thats 10 more flat riders (example) than selling no flat bikes and attracting 0 from not selling any flat bikes.
Metaphorically :
In the past we tralled the seas for shellfish, and this resulted in bags of shellfish and in every bag there were a few that were worth keeping.
Keeping the boat mored instead and expecting the worthy shellfish to come to the boat instead is a little naive.
If we look at BMX racing, it was in decline for YEARS.
But what changed it?
Branding and organisation .... (may not be to everyones taste)
But do you think racers really need frames that look like an octopus to win races?
No they do it for sales and attracting new blood through branding and image.
At least when we had bendy frames and gyros they served a function ( ergonomics and performance ).
While retaining a look that made them more appealing for mass market, and that resulted in a few extra riders.
-
LACK OF ORGANIZATION IN COUNTRIES
LIKE IN THE UNITED STATES..NO REAL SYSTEM HERE
JUST A FEW JAMS AND CONTESTS A YEAR!
-
REAL LAST FLATLAND TYPE ORGANIZATION WAS CFB SYSTEM
BY HOFFMAN AND BEFORE THAT THE AFA....
THE AFL AND CHRIS DID TRY TO GET IT GOING..BUT IT FAILED
AND THE JINX CONTESTS TRIED ALSO AND DID NOT DO WELL!
-
I AGREE WITH BYKE IN THAT BMX RACING GOT ALOT BIGGER AND NOW IS
AN OLYMPIC SPORT BY GETTING NATIONAL BMX ORGANIZATIONS IN TUNE
WITH INTERNATIONAL BICYCLE ORGANIZATIONS....
THE WORLD CIRCUIT IS GOOD BUT IT NEEDS TO BE INSTEAD OF 3
ROUNDS, BE LIKE 7-8 ROUNDS AND EACH COUNTRY THAT IS INVOLVED
IN FLATLAND NEEDS TO ORGANIZE THEIR OWN ORGANIZATIONS AND
EVENTS,THIS CONSISTING OF 4-5 EVENTS A YEAR.
I THINK THE LACK OF NEW RIDERS IS PARTIALLY TO BLAME,NOT ONLY
WHAT WE TALKED ABOUT,BUT ALSO THE LACK OF ORGANIZATION LIKE
BYKE STATED!
THE UNITED STATES ESPECIALLY NEEDS TO GET AN ORGANIZATION TOGETHER
OF 4-5 COMPS A YEAR AND JAPAN HAS THE KOG BUT THEY JUST NEED MAYBE
1-2 MORE COMPS A YEAR AND THAT SERIES BEEN GOING FOR AWHILE.FUNNY
JAPAN HAS THE RIGHT ATTITUDE IN MAKING FLATLAND GROW AND ALSO THE
LARGEST AMOUNT OF RIDERS WITHIN ITS COUNTRY ALSO!
MAYBE OTHER COUNTRIES INVOLVED IN FLATLAND SHOULD TAKE EXAMPLE OF
WHAT JAPAN IS DOING IN THEIR SERIES.
-
While I dont disagree that learning flat can be discouraging and hard ..... (and a nice way to boost flatlanders own self consciousness and self values) it doesnt take away from the fact that unless kids try flatland they wont know.
And thats the point.
If flat looking bikes in the stores were attractive to everyday kids (as they were) and we saw lets say 1000 bikes sold every year (example) and out of those we then saw (example) 10 riders who looked at the bikes they had and attempted to ride flat on them and stuck with ......
Then thats 10 more flat riders (example) than selling no flat bikes and attracting 0 from not selling any flat bikes.
I had this discussion about a year ago with another rider. On one hand, we could see that perhaps the "streetification" of flatland frame designs kind of "takes away" from its flatness, and if the bikes were exactly the same street bikes, perhaps kids wouldn't even bother getting into flatland.
On the other hand, perhaps kids that would have started riding street and never even thought about riding flatland would be exposed to flatland via a brand that makes a product that caters to both forms of riding and a few of them might actually really get into flatland. We can see street dudes learning some flat moves these days. hang-5, nosewheelies, hang-nothings, etc. Maybe a few of them might start doing steam rollers and hitchhikers.
A third hypothesis was that new kids would ride flatland to learn just those tricks that are used in street and that would be it. Crazy long combos and tricks would be reserved for the current community of flatlanders we would continue to drift away from the rest of BMX on our own....
This is what happened to flatland skateboarding. There is still a small community of flatland skateboarders that are in that "Rodney Mullen" era, doing crazy flatland skate tricks on flatland specific board. While the majority of skaters are only using relevant flatland tricks on street such as tre flips, shove-its, heel flips, nose manual, etc. The designs of the street boards went from the bullet shaped street boards of the 80s with a big tail and small nose to a more flatlandish design where the nose and tail are almost the same.
-
Many, Many years ago .... I too saw how flatland skateboarding had become marginalized and later on became swallowed up and ingested into what is now classed as "Street". And while I have had that thought niggling in my mind since the late 80's / early 90's - I dont think its so apparent as I feared it may be.
Obviously, by the removal of certain characteristics (brakes, platforms, cranks, ergonomics, pegs etc ... AKA Bareback) then it will be easier for flatland to be swallowed up or rebranded into something else.
BMX Racing has paid a heavy price for the attention they have been looking for.
Some go as so far as stating its "A deal with the devil".
But given the alternatives, they didnt have much choice.
It would be interesting to see brakes come back (full circle) .... not in a bid to relive the past .....
But in a way to see if the next generation can find new ways to incorporate this feature in a new way that previous generations hadnt been able to (the same way we have seen brakeless riding progress)
-
If anything the simple frame styles and bars will attract newer riders. I rode street for 15 years before I started riding flat and the things that really turned me off to it were the disgusting, twisted and mangled looking frames and the 100 piece bars.
Flatland is starting to get some style, not to say that riders like Paul Osicka didn't but he was an exception. Street riders are all about riding with style so they're not going to be attracted to riding like Matt Wilhelm, who's a disgusting robot. People like Matthias; as much as I dislike him, is necessary to bridge the gap between flat and street which could potentially bring street riders to the other side.
Another factor that stops the younger generation from riding flat is that it doesn't look appealing to ride in an empty parking lot for 10 hours a day by yourself. Even when flatlanders do ride together it seems as though they take no joy in it. If you've ever been to a street contest if someone throws down a banger people go ape sh*t. If you're at a flat contest it seems more like a funeral. That's why I think it's cool how the Canadian guys like Prasheel and his crew show up and f*ck around at the contests.
For the most part the street riders hate flatlanders; except for when they want tips on how to do nose wheelies so what I say is the kids can go get f*cked lol.
-
If anything the simple frame styles and bars will attract newer riders. I rode street for 15 years before I started riding flat and the things that really turned me off to it were the disgusting, twisted and mangled looking frames and the 100 piece bars.
What aspects turned you on to flatland?
-
If anything the simple frame styles and bars will attract newer riders. I rode street for 15 years before I started riding flat and the things that really turned me off to it were the disgusting, twisted and mangled looking frames and the 100 piece bars.
Flatland is starting to get some style, not to say that riders like Paul Osicka didn't but he was an exception. Street riders are all about riding with style so they're not going to be attracted to riding like Matt Wilhelm, who's a disgusting robot. People like Matthias; as much as I dislike him, is necessary to bridge the gap between flat and street which could potentially bring street riders to the other side.
Another factor that stops the younger generation from riding flat is that it doesn't look appealing to ride in an empty parking lot for 10 hours a day by yourself. Even when flatlanders do ride together it seems as though they take no joy in it. If you've ever been to a street contest if someone throws down a banger people go ape sh*t. If you're at a flat contest it seems more like a funeral. That's why I think it's cool how the Canadian guys like Prasheel and his crew show up and f*ck around at the contests.
For the most part the street riders hate flatlanders; except for when they want tips on how to do nose wheelies so what I say is the kids can go get f*cked lol.
i agree with this statement. my local street riders only start to speak and ask me to ride with them around my city after i changed my kgb frame to Abt. funny that i've always been riding the same spot with them before for the past 3years!. now some of them can be seen doing megaspins, hang5 n even steamrollers.
-
I don't think the bendy tubes hurts so much as the size we've moved to and the difficulty of flatland.
As much as rolling tricks opened up the possibilities, it pushed out a huge number of riders. It wasn't easy enough to be decent at it anymore.
Back in my day (I work that phrase in any time I can) if you rode, you just rode. Everybody knew some flat, some ramp, jumped anything you could find and contests had overall titles.
Now the community is all splintered off into their own subspecies of specialization with their own super tweaked bikes. Back then they were all the exact same bikes. You could ride flat at night and take the same bike on vert the next day. You didn't have to choose beyond the brand and you always had something to break up the monotony of practicing the same thing over and over.
I also blame part of the problem on flatland being too safe for TV. If you're not risking your life, it's not X-Games material no matter how much skill is involved and IMHO, it's a lot easier to become OK at ramp or street than modern flatland.
If you can't get to "I'm OK at this" you never get the life commitment and if you think you need a bike that's too cramped and weak to do anything else, you probably won't even bother.
-
U-1Works tara-reba "Osaka Moment syndrome" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8LBWf6NPLU#ws)
-
For the sake of the sport, in some reason todays current trends are just an evolution of yesteryear...
Chad DeGroot rode brakeless when he was 20 and riding for standard.
Paul O' - rode his dual front lever for who knows how long, he dropped off the main stream a long time ago so, who knows, he still maybe rolling dual front levers on a Primo Pervert?
I built a bike with the new tiny stem and zero fork and it felt funny, also rode with just a front brake and got tired of not being able to stop-pivot some links.
It is human nature to make sure you are "cool" - COOL today is big bars and 19.5" TT...
Most/All of the kids in my little area are putting brakes back on just for the fact that they see a few of us riding with them and the higher amount of bike control you can get...
To each their own... I love my offset and 48mm Stem... Doesnt mean its for everyone
-
but Chad was a natural rider like Andrew arroyo
that does not count!
-
As a (very) recent beginner, one of the things I love about flatland is that it isn't popular at all. As of yet, I have never, ever seen a person in Scotland riding flatland. I'm sure it exists in small pockets or individual riders (myself one of them) but that is all. It makes me feel unique and dedicated to a hobby that I love on a personal level, not one that I feel I need to take part in purely to impress others. It takes meditation and commitment and self-discipline and that's all I care about.
First and foremost, I loved the flow, balance, dedication and skill that flatland riders have; gear and tech comes as a complete, but nonetheless important, afterthought.
And contrary to most opinion, I love the whacky frames and a more specific flatland setup, it feels like you're tailoring your riding to a subgenre of BMX that I've quickly grown to love. In fact, I thought that old school riders had the simpler frames and they had begun to get more specific into the modern era, I like bikes that catch my eye and ones that you can tell are flatland from a single glance at.
In any case, as much as I would love flatland to become more popular so that we could have some more stores (be it online or on a street, especially in the UK) and more local competitions, I adore flatland because it's unique.
I take pride in being a lone wolf and cutting my own groove, and for that, flatland is nigh-on perfect.
-
YOUR IN GLASGOW MATE..MY FAMILY FROM ABERDEEN AND YEAH FEW SCOTTISH FLATLANDERS
AND IT IS TOO BLOODY COLD THERE MOST OF THE YEAR!
-
Mutt, I think I may have seen them on Jeremy Kyle.
-
really Byke,
funny smart ass and Jeremy Kyle is the trash shows of the UK
and like many others on here in the U.S. or were on and Geraldo,
and others!
Your not even English, mate and your talking trash but that is all you!!
-
IRL, do you say "mate"....? or Bro, Brah or Buddy?
-
yes I said mate
-
Back on topic. The techier street setups and riding styles are opening up the eyes and minds to flatland I believe.
However, more traditional flatland is being limited by the current bike setups quite a bit. Brakeless, low tt, no platforms all make decades harder to the point where a single decade is recognized as fairly legitimate trick. 15 years ago a single decade was just one of the easiest stylish rideouts to more complicated scuffing, switching, and/or rolling combos. A double was recognized as something legit. Sure the pumping, pivoting and turbining stuff has been pushed quite far in terms of difficulty but isn't that just getting better at Fewer Techniques? and is that actually growing the tricktionaries??
I've been watching KJ vids on FB and it really makes me want to go back to the "older" days of my riding.
I second that. :beer: :beer:
-
I say just ride.
-
Back on topic. The techier street setups and riding styles are opening up the eyes and minds to flatland I believe.
However, more traditional flatland is being limited by the current bike setups quite a bit. Brakeless, low tt, no platforms all make decades harder to the point where a single decade is recognized as fairly legitimate trick. 15 years ago a single decade was just one of the easiest stylish rideouts to more complicated scuffing, switching, and/or rolling combos. A double was recognized as something legit. Sure the pumping, pivoting and turbining stuff has been pushed quite far in terms of difficulty but isn't that just getting better at Fewer Techniques? and is that actually growing the tricktionaries??
I've been watching KJ vids on FB and it really makes me want to go back to the "older" days of my riding.
I second that. :beer: :beer:
This is why I still ride both brakes...a combination of newer and older riding styles would be my idea get down!
-
Tod I saw you ride at the Twenty inches Jam and you like to go mach 5 and love your mix of older and newer riding.
-
I dont know if its been mentioned or not but in my opinion bmx in every aspect is going back to the old ways. Doesnt matter if your bike is specific to any aspect....bikes are the same and everyone rides everything. Its good for the sport though...and it shows. The level of tricks has exploded with pure dedication and attention on riding in general, not what everyones bike looks like.
With that said, i personally like the bendy tubed short frames, low cross bars, radial laced 48s and of course brakes. I am at the moment in a rough spot in life and cant afford those nice parts. So im riding a 7yr old haro. It just happens to be a straight tubed 19"tt thats pretty light, 2pc bars, reglr 4x laced 48s, and i took all the brakes off it cuz well they didnt work at all.. And like everyone else i am worried how heavy it is (bout 28 lbs) But im riding it because i love to ride not cuz its nice and new. In my past tho admittingly, i had a super cool and nice flatland machine and thats what i was worried more so about....not what i was doing on it.
My point with all the rambling above?...............it doesnt matter.
-
Tod I saw you ride at the Twenty inches Jam and you like to go mach 5 and love your mix of older and newer riding.
Ah yes...I do like to keep the BMX part of BMX Freestyle for sure. And thanks! When I was coming up, I rode everything. BMX racing included. It was all good. Which is why the Hoods were so awesome to watch. They just rode everything.
With that said, back on topic...I was excited to see a clip of Mathias riding at Estonia. And he's riding a more "street" set up. I hope it helps usher in the wave of the future...people riding everything. Funny to me that he was on this forum saying "old school thinking is killing modern flatland"...or whatever he said, because that's exactly what he's going back to. And good for him.
Rick Moliterno was the ultimate rider, #1 racer, top ranked ramp/flat rider. The guy did it all. That's where riding is headed again, and the bikes designs will reflect that.
-
Just going to pop in here and go "ahahahaha no" because anyone that thinks people are "hindered" are looking at flatland through rose tinted glasses. Sorry, I've been around long enough to know nothing has really changed. At all.
-
Just going to pop in here and go "ahahahaha no" because anyone that thinks people are "hindered" are looking at flatland through rose tinted glasses. Sorry, I've been around long enough to know nothing has really changed. At all.
? I don't understand.
-
Yeah I don't follow either. I mean these things will always be cyclical to a certain extent; but you can't deny that riding styles and bikes have not changed at all over the last ten years.
-
Just going to pop in here and go "ahahahaha no" because anyone that thinks people are "hindered" are looking at flatland through rose tinted glasses. Sorry, I've been around long enough to know nothing has really changed. At all.
? I don't understand.
Bikes have nothing to do with "hindering" of anything. Neither does riding "everything" as you put it. People keep talking about how riders aren't learning a wider variety of tricks because of current styles. I think that's wrong. I think most riders are going to have a limited group of tricks they feel comfortable with no matter what era you grew up in. I do not understand why this point is said again and again without any real proof to back it up.
Riding styles have changed. The general approach to riding has not. I don't see people progressing any faster or slower in general then they were ten years ago. The only reason anything appears to have changed is that there are videos of everyones riding every 30 seconds online. You're inundated with riding, and unless you turn off the internet it's not going to go away. I don't see the way people ride at jams or contests to be any different now than they were ten years ago, and I don't mean tricks.
The jam circle hasn't changed. People still for one reason or another say "Yeah!" when a hard trick is landed. (Saying anything other than "yeah" feels weird, and it seems like you could take someone who has never seen flatland in their life in front of flatland and they too would say "yeah".) People still go through the motions of learning fire hydrants and hang 5s. The bikes are lighter, which actually makes popping into hang 5s much easier than when I started, so there's that
The argument I'm seeing is basically that newer riders are being turned off by something in flatland now, where as before we had people coming in in higher numbers. I think that is demonstrably false, and in the process of backing up the idea that there are lesser riders people are waxing nostalgic and making tangential connections to the "good ole days" and acting as if they are arguments in support of their position. The two have nothing to do with one another. It's a numbers game.
Nobody is limited by today's bikes. I never had a bike with a decade platform. I learned decades, did a few doubles, then stopped doing them because nobody made a long enough f*cking frame for me to not feel insanely cramped learning decades not because I didn't have a platform. Now it's 2012 and I have frames I actually feel comfortable with rather than 2001 when I had to ride a Quamen or Tao which felt like a toy. Bikes now are the best they've ever been in the history of the sport, and somehow that's the floodgate standing between what we have now, and growth? I doubt that.
Matthias is right. Old school thinking has in large measure been a negative thing. The last jam I went to I heard an older rider say straight up without any shame "God it looks like the same thing over and over" as he was watching me ride. It's just another form of bashing pumping or steamrollers that older guys do, as if scuffing and ending a combo in fire-hydrant-to-decade is any different. That's the kind of thinking that hurts. Who gives a sh*t if people ride "everything"? Isn't the point to just get on your bike and go? I would rather have 1 flatlander who pushes themselves to the breaking point in just flatland, then 100 people who can clear a spine and then wear it on their sleeve.
Brett compared two bikes and made the point of saying "which one will he not get made fun of for riding?" and picked out the complete Darwin of all things. I think a better example would be this:
http://flatlandfuel.com/khe2012a-damnstcompletebike.aspx (http://flatlandfuel.com/khe2012a-damnstcompletebike.aspx)
What in the hell is going to distinguish that from your starter street bike? What about that set up is holding flat back? It was cherrypicking on Bretts part. That's kind of what's happening here and I don't think it's accurate.
Thestraw is the one making points that everyone seems to be ignoring here, and he's 100% right. The forum has nothing to do with the growth of flatland, because if one thing has been pretty constant the last decade I've been around is that forum goers are generally couch potatoes that will talk the talk without backing it up and hits to global/backlash/bmxtrix are unrelated to the growth of the sport. It's like saying that the number of people going to bespoke tailors is in decline, therefor the textile economy is in decline. It's not an accurate measurement of growth.
whew. that felt good. been a while.
-
Well, I do feel we have different perspectives on things. You talk about your experience in the last 10 yeaars of riding, to which I have no real understanding of because I just took up riding again 3 years ago. I'm thinking of how much things have actually changed from the mid-late 80's when I first started riding. And it's not looking through rose colored glasses.
The actual numbers are WAY different. Here are some facts. Bike sales were through the roof in the mid-late 80's. So much so, that pros were getting signed to 100,000 dollar deals or more. Dennis McCoy who won the AFA title in flatland for several years was making $300, 000. Woody Itson got a gold plated bike as a gift because his sponsor was making too damn much money.
Guys back then usually rode everything. They just rode. Mat Hoffman won the overall title in 87 because he rode flat too. So wether you specialized in one aspect of riding or not, chances are that you rode a bit of everything. This is all part of why bike sales were so hot. The idea that what you could do on a BMX bike was limitless. Now, you take a look at a flatland bike with the twisted frames and such...it does indeed make things limited.
Competition participation was also through the roof. You had a break down of classes...novice, intermediate, expert and pro. All of these except pro were broken down by age. It wasn't uncommon to see 100 riders, riding in 16-18 expert flat. That's just for one class! You'd be hard pressed to get that many riders total at a modern flatland comp.
I think these are all pretty clear indicators of how many riders were getting started back then. The influx of new talent was on the rise in big numbers.
That's not waxing nostalgia...that's numbers you can look at.
But anywho, I agree with you on some of your points for sure. I'll get into that more a bit later...I have to run.
And it's good to see you riding again TJ. And even your bullheadedness I have missed on the forum. Hope your wrist co-operates with you.
-
i have to agree with TJ. I started riding in 1986 stopped 3 or 4 times for a little while , then started riding again, but i never really lost contact with flatland througout all theses years. The way i see it i don't think that anything has drastically changed. There was a big boom in the mid 80's when it all started, but since 1990, it's always been more or less the same i guess...in the early nineties there were even less riders than now in Europe, i think so. I remember at that time i was trying to do the same tricks as Chase, but with small success i must say ;)
To my knowledge, as far backa s i can remember, Flatland has always been the lesser loved child of BMX, with less riders as in Street park or dirt. During the rolling days everyone was doing deathtrucks, whiplashes, hang 5s....during the sucffing days evryone was scuffing. Now everyone is turbining.....nothing new really. i work in the textile industry, so i know a bit about trends, the importance of trends, and the fact that you cannot deny them because they are real and have real impact on poeple. Wethere you like it or not, it's a fact.
-
I agree with TJ.Bikes have very little to do if nothing to do with hindering "new blood". The "old headism" might have been hindering if it were effective outside of the internet or Howard and others comments on flatmatters. This ride with a "nuetral" setup with all brakes is stupid, half the people that argue this barely use them to high.creative potentials Like say Kotaro or that Kid sponsored by St.martin. Some old heads cry about a lack of creativity when relatively speaking they wouldnt even be creative in the time zones that their minds are in.
And that "meme's to end " bullsh*t that Chase wrote was stupid and as hypocritical if not more than the typical I ride twice a month oldhead that we never see at jams or if they show up never ride. He talks about not limiting ones self with brakeless riding and trends but forgets to mention that he openly copied Kevin Jones, and was inspired by Mike S. to become brakeless. He rode brakeless for the longest and created in flatland history one of the trendiest of parts "the chase bars" they broke like many other bars so many went to 2-pc bars.
Now the problem I see with many younger peeps is that they all do a lot of the same combos. (peg wheelie turbine to timemachine) switchhand turbines. etc heavily underutilizing the amount of tricks one can even do brakeless with intermediate skills..I think "cloning" and "street setups" comes from the desire of a very common type of gratification that doesnt get recieved very often in flatland. Say for instance a kid does a 180 he can feel A HELLA of alot more instant gratification than a flatlander learning a an equally difficult trick like a fork glide because he will ACTUALLY see a pro street rider etc do it ,thats not the same for a young flatlander. So they pic out tricks from pros that are both "cool" looking yet not too difficult, Like say turbining. This may actually be a sign that flatland is growing as we have the "priviledge" of having a problem like this...BUTyou have to excuse younger riders because they are young and they have to learn something, they can't come out the box original..NOBODY did if you look at the tapes close enough..
actually alot of pro's either get praise for copying other peoples style or get no sh*t about it. Very rarely did i ever hear Matthias being a Desrouche clone but then people wanna turn around when a kid does that same wheelchair bar flip straight onto the ground he gets called a clone for it, not even the proper Desrouche clone..Kow your clones people! Same for riders like Kiba who openly just want to ride like Osicka. you can't win with idiots on the internet, but we don't see them jammin it up either do we. On the internet your rarely going to get credit were credit is due or even blame for where blame is due...maybe because the internet demographic is far different from the actually real world riding demographic.
-
It wasn't uncommon to see 100 riders, riding in 16-18 expert flat. That's just for one class! You'd be hard pressed to get that many riders total at a modern flatland comp.
This is interesting, I wonder if it is a sheer numbers game or an issue of fragmentation. In other activities we see as they grow we go from one or two big events to dozens of smaller ones turnout at each event is lower, but the total number of participants of all events together is mostly the same. Instead of everyone saving their pennies for the big event, they go to whatever is more convenient and obviously not many people can make every one. There's also the issue of promotion and even knowing what events are going on where.
-
Well, I do feel we have different perspectives on things. You talk about your experience in the last 10 yeaars of riding, to which I have no real understanding of because I just took up riding again 3 years ago. I'm thinking of how much things have actually changed from the mid-late 80's when I first started riding. And it's not looking through rose colored glasses.
Yes, it is, and I'll explain why based on what you said here.
The actual numbers are WAY different. Here are some facts. Bike sales were through the roof in the mid-late 80's. So much so, that pros were getting signed to 100,000 dollar deals or more. Dennis McCoy who won the AFA title in flatland for several years was making $300, 000. Woody Itson got a gold plated bike as a gift because his sponsor was making too damn much money.
And then the bottom dropped out for no real reason because sponsors fled the sport even though there wasn't some huge swing in the direction of riding. They just....left. It has nothing to do with whether or not people were riding all disciplines. In fact, as the sport progressed you simply couldn't ride everything and be pro at it all like you could in the 80's. It's just not feasible given the arc the sport took. It has nothing to do with the bikes now, it has to do with the sponsors who lost interest in shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars for no return and no real reason.
Guys back then usually rode everything. They just rode. Mat Hoffman won the overall title in 87 because he rode flat too. So wether you specialized in one aspect of riding or not, chances are that you rode a bit of everything. This is all part of why bike sales were so hot. The idea that what you could do on a BMX bike was limitless. Now, you take a look at a flatland bike with the twisted frames and such...it does indeed make things limited.
God this is so played out. Bike frames NOW are not twisted. Most of them are straight tubed. In fact, if you look at the offerings on flatland fuel over the last few years, the most bizarre looking frames are Quamens and strowlers. Everything else looks like a street frame. It's been this way for a while and it hasn't changed anything.
Competition participation was also through the roof. You had a break down of classes...novice, intermediate, expert and pro. All of these except pro were broken down by age. It wasn't uncommon to see 100 riders, riding in 16-18 expert flat. That's just for one class! You'd be hard pressed to get that many riders total at a modern flatland comp.
most high level stuff in the 80's could barely cut it in beginner/intermedate now. It's just not difficult compared to what people do now. At Toronto in 2002 we had almost 100 riders. After that it completely dropped off. Why? There was absolutely no reason at all. The sport was progressing at an alarming rate, and people just stopped riding. It had nothing to do with the bikes which at the time were also improving.
I think these are all pretty clear indicators of how many riders were getting started back then. The influx of new talent was on the rise in big numbers.
Then what happened to it? Where did they all go and why did the sport lose momentum? If anyone is to blame for the decline, it's the generation that sprung out of the era you look back on so fondly.
That's not waxing nostalgia...that's numbers you can look at.
Indeed, which is why I stand by my point.
And it's good to see you riding again TJ. And even your bullheadedness I have missed on the forum. Hope your wrist co-operates with you.
It's not bullheadedness, it's just numbers and facts. You're looking for a reason just like a lot of people are to point to ANYTHING in modern flat and place blame for why we are where we are. People aren't riding flat because they don't want to. It's that simple. It hasn't gotten any harder or easier over the years. Riding has gotten more stylish and easier to get into. People just aren't interested in it.
-
Something else I want to point out. In order for me to fly out of Richmond VA It's around 300-400 depending on where I'm going. This doesn't include food, hotel, extra costs for carry on and my bike. It's INSANELY expensive. Travel costs ten years ago were nothing compared to what they are now. A flight to california cost me around 175 with no extra fees in 2003. Now? It's like 500 bucks. that's an insane increase.
-
mostly stuff i agree with, except stuff about Chase.
Old people love to talk about people copying this and that, but very rarely do they display much in the way of creativity themselves.
On the whole, the sport right now is stronger in terms of difficulty, creativity, and originality, than it ever has been. Ever. Yes there's the whole plywood hoods thing and what not, but that was just the foundation. If you fast forward to now it is soooo much harder to do your own thing and patent your own style. It's so ridiculously hard to come up with something before someone else does. I've done so many tricks that I thought were my "own" and while they were, it turned out that someone else came up with the same thing at the same time so the credit is split and diminished. That doesn't stop me or anyone else from trying to do something new, but god damn the criticism people hurl at newer riders just isn't justified.
Now if you are copying Matthias's easiest tricks and putting out edits to songs he puts in his, then yeah you're going to be laughed at. But for every one rider doing that, there are 3-4 coming up with clever little switches other people just aren't doing and that demands respect which people are hesitant to give at times, especially the older guys. The only times I hear older people voice approval in numbers is when someone puts brakes on and does tricks that are 10+ years old. Hypocrites!
-
"...The only times I hear older people voice approval in numbers is when someone puts brakes on and does tricks that are 10+ years old. Hypocrites!..."
[/size]
[/size]heu well::::not all older riders please ;) i don't recognize myself there, and i think of plenty of other older riders like me who have been following the natural evolution of flatland without looking back saying "it was so much better then". I don't think it was better before, or worse. ridings are changing with years and decades, all i was saying is that the trend mechanism has always been the same, and probably always will be...i'm neither against or in favor of "copying" tricks and style, to me it's just a fact, it's what people do, it's not even an opinion i have...it's a fact, something you notice after years of watching flatland, and other things...in design we call that "inspiration" ;)
-
I'm just generalizing. There are plenty of really awesome older guys (and guys with skills like flaTTech, Rybak etc).
-
So would it be correct in saying that the look of some bike parts, don't help sales?
-
So would it be correct in saying that the look of some bike parts, don't help sales?
Would it be correct in saying the look of any product sold in the history of a currency based trade system effects the sale of said item?
Some might say based on the ubiquitous nature of personal preference this might be true!
-
I would think the new bikes are actually attracting new blood because as far as I have seen people are more interested in the "street" looking bikes anyway. I also think more people have actually been getting into flatland lately than I have seen in a long time, but maybe that's just the internet giving me that impression.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure the main reason there were so many people riding in the 80's compared to now is that the stuff today is much harder. I have seen countless times when people would just give up when they couldn't do something. Most people are lazy -- doesn't anyone know this? One of the main things separating real flat riders from the rest of the world is that we almost never give up. That's one of the main things that makes us so much different. The old school days had guys riding trying to make a quick easy buck and some of them succeeded in doing it, but after flat progressed like crazy they couldn't do this anymore and we no longer see them.
-
TJ,
"You're looking for a reason just like a lot of people are to point to ANYTHING in modern flat and place blame for why we are where we are. People aren't riding flat because they don't want to. It's that simple. It hasn't gotten any harder or easier over the years. Riding has gotten more stylish and easier to get into. People just aren't interested in it."
Really, I don't care about the modern state of flatland or whatever. And where are we? I don't think the era I came from is any better. The tricks are WAY harder now, the bikes are definitely better. I wouldn't trade my Flatware frame for anything I rode back in the day. I was just speaking of my experience watching all of this go down in the 80's. It all went bust, and I'm grateful that it did. It stripped it down, got ride of the companies that were in it to just make a buck, and left the people that just rode for fun.
I'm perfectly content with people not being interested in flatland.
-
at some point, flatland may come to be viewed as an old man's sport if things don't change. i hope some new riders jump in soon tho! i have seen two, myself, in the past- what, 5 years or so? 2. now i rarely ever even see them. ugh. i don't think the shape of frames makes two sh*ts difference about who rides and who doesn't, honestly. it's something else, and for the life of me, i don't know what that something else is.
-
TJ,
"You're looking for a reason just like a lot of people are to point to ANYTHING in modern flat and place blame for why we are where we are. People aren't riding flat because they don't want to. It's that simple. It hasn't gotten any harder or easier over the years. Riding has gotten more stylish and easier to get into. People just aren't interested in it."
Really, I don't care about the modern state of flatland or whatever. And where are we? I don't think the era I came from is any better. The tricks are WAY harder now, the bikes are definitely better. I wouldn't trade my Flatware frame for anything I rode back in the day. I was just speaking of my experience watching all of this go down in the 80's. It all went bust, and I'm grateful that it did. It stripped it down, got ride of the companies that were in it to just make a buck, and left the people that just rode for fun.
I'm perfectly content with people not being interested in flatland.
Yeah it's great for people who don't give a sh*t about progression or who might want to make it their livelyhood.
Justin Miller will go down as one of if not the best riders in and out of contests. He got next to nothing for it when you look at it from a monetary perspective. If you add up his entire contest winnings, you might get a halfway decent entry level salary for one year of labor in the working world. that's a pittance and it's shameful people cheer this on like it's a good thing.
-
Yeah it's great for people who don't give a sh*t about progression or who might want to make it their livelyhood.
Justin Miller will go down as one of if not the best riders in and out of contests. He got next to nothing for it when you look at it from a monetary perspective. If you add up his entire contest winnings, you might get a halfway decent entry level salary for one year of labor in the working world. that's a pittance and it's shameful people cheer this on like it's a good thing.
I think what he's trying to say is that it at least got rid of the people who were just doing stupid sh*t like hopping around and left only those who are actually pushing the sport. Are you saying that it could also be pushing the progressive riders away? So let me get this straight -- flatland is more profitable at less progressive levels and when it evolves less people participate, companies leave the market leading to less advertisement, and then even less people participate furthering the cycle. Is flatland self-defeating?
Maybe Justin Miller just got into it thinking he was going to get money and fame -- despite how good he was this was obviously the wrong reason for doing it.
-
Yeah it's great for people who don't give a sh*t about progression or who might want to make it their livelyhood.
Justin Miller will go down as one of if not the best riders in and out of contests. He got next to nothing for it when you look at it from a monetary perspective. If you add up his entire contest winnings, you might get a halfway decent entry level salary for one year of labor in the working world. that's a pittance and it's shameful people cheer this on like it's a good thing.
I think what he's trying to say is that it at least got rid of the people who were just doing stupid sh*t like hopping around and left only those who are actually pushing the sport.
Pretty much, this. Got rid of the companies that were making useless bikes too.
-
You're right it put St Martin right out of business.
Errr. wait. Still going strong.
Why would you be against paying riders who push the sport a reasonable salary? That's ridiculous and selfish.
-
I don’t believe that bike shapes are going to drasticaly affect attracting new blood to flatland. Although more street and park riders may be more attracted to the street look of the double triangle frame, bigger two piece bars, and lower seats. So it is possible that faltlanders riding that style in bigger numbers would make flatland look “cooler” to them and accept it more. From what I have seen street riders are much more about style and “fitting in” then the average flatlander. If the average flatlander wanted to be more accepted by a larger crowd they would just go mess around with street and park and leave flat behind. This is probably partly what happened to flatland in the early 90s street boom. BMX riders were leaving flat behind for street, dirt and ramps. At least that is what I saw happen to any flat riders I rode with in the 80s.. It seemed to me like flat was left behind and became less and less accepted by the other forms of BMX.. Maybe the overall acceptance of ALL forms of riding by all riders in the 80s, and the fact that flat was much easier in the 80s is why it was so big at the time..
Some street/ park riders do respect flatland a great deal, but I believe there is a large portion of them that don’t. I use to ride everything, street, park, dirt, even vert ramps. I would imagine I am one of the few flatlanders, at least riding at the level of difficulty that my flat is at, that has done a 540 on a vert ramp, wall rides, jumped a 15 foot dirt jump double etc. I say this to point out that I have “rode everything” or “freestyle” or what ever you care to call it, so this may give me an interesting perspective on some things. For the past ten years I have only rode flat (and flatland is all I want to ride now!), and I don’t see the need to push flatlanders into the concept of riding everything else. Hell, flat already has very few riders why push them into other portions of BMX.. That just kinda happens anyways. I fairly recently saw it happen with a beginner flat rider in my area, he started with some basic 80s flat and then bought an FBM street type complete and stopped riding flat to ride some street and go to the local park..
So, where does flatland get more riders and new blood from? Probably easier to get some riders already involved in BMX in some way to start riding flat then it would be to get someone interested in flat that is not even involved in BMX at all. This is were flatlanders “crossing over” to street/park may help flat gain more acceptance again in that portion of BMX. I’ve seen this firsthand. About ten years ago I was riding a local skate park on my flat specefic bike (Hoffman EP), I was doing some flat in a small area trying to stay out of the way. After doing some flat I decided to hit the ramps up on my EP, ha. I busted out a huge can can over a hip jump, and received a nice response from the other park riders. Afterwards a park rider came up to me and told me he personally thought flat was amazing, but the other park riders were making fun of my flatland, that is until I gained there respect with some jumps and later some airs out of the bowl, and some lip tricks on the mini.
My point is, flatland does not always get taken serious by riders in other disiplines, sometimes I’m sure they are just jealous of the ability, so they make fun of it to make them feel better. Either way it is bad for flat. Although many riders do have respect for flat, and “cross over/overall/freestyle” riders do help with acceptance in all forms of BMX.. A primarily flat rider riding a park, or even in a park contest is a good way to help promote acceptance and get riders interested in a flat riders approach to hitting up the park with some flat influence. And may eventually draw them to flatland, although unlikely for most.
As for the average person, that has nothing to do with BMX at all. They see flatland as a circus sideshow. I’ve been told numerous times I should be in the circus, as I bet most flatlanders have been told this. And it just looks impossible to them, so it is difficult to get them involved. In a way progression of tricks probably does make it harder to get new blood involved, because it is very difficult, and looks very difficult. There isn’t much instant gratification. Flatland can be overwhelming, and most flatlanders are different than the average person.
As Tod said, I also am content with people not being interested in flatland. As long as I am interested in it. But, I personally would prefer the perfect world scenerio were a large portion of good flatlanders made a really good living from just flatland, and flatland had larger participation. If potential riders saw flatlanders getting huge props on TV and winning huge dollars it might attract them to it, although not really for the correct reasons IMO. But it would get more involved and possibly addicted to flat.. Hell, I wouldn’t mind if I had made a living from flat. Although I am, and have always rode for myself, and the true love of riding. An individual riding for the reasons I do will always ride for many years longer then if you are riding for other reason IMO..
No generation of riders is to blame for flatland being so small today. It is what it is. There needs to be acceptance, tolerance, and support between all generations, ability levels, and disciplines of BMX.
-
Very well said.^^^
I too, think that more people would be interested in flatland coming from other aspects of BMX, rather than someone just coming into BMX and choosing flatland to ride in particular.
-
TJ, I'll just let flaTTech respond for me. This pretty much sums it for me in regards to your last post.
"As Tod said, I also am content with people not being interested in flatland. As long as I am interested in it. But, I personally would prefer the perfect world scenerio were a large portion of good flatlanders made a really good living from just flatland, and flatland had larger participation. If potential riders saw flatlanders getting huge props on TV and winning huge dollars it might attract them to it, although not really for the correct reasons IMO. But it would get more involved and possibly addicted to flat.. Hell, I wouldn’t mind if I had made a living from flat. Although I am, and have always rode for myself, and the true love of riding. An individual riding for the reasons I do will always ride for many years longer then if you are riding for other reason IMO."
-
It's like saying "I am glad a great pestilence came and wiped out almost everyone alive because those of us still standing are truly the ones who love living."
-
Just wanted to clarify that I am not trying to say that pro riders trying to get some monetary return from their riding don't also love flatland. A rider can have many different reasons they ride. Honestly I would think any flatlander that gets really good must love it, because it takes so much effort to get to a high level.
"content" isn't really the best word to use to describe my feeling of the situation, because it implies being satisfied. Although I have accepted that there is not a large interest in flatland. Tod, you maybe a bit more "content" then me, because you have a fairly large and active flat scene very close to you.
It's like saying "I am glad a great pestilence came and wiped out almost everyone alive because those of us still standing are truly the ones who love living."
TJ, if your analogy is refering to flatland booming in the 80s and then seemingly wiped out by some unknown plague, for reasons nobody probably will ever fully understand, there are some differences in what I said and your analogy.
First of all, I was not "glad" about the "great pestilence". I would have prefered flatland to have thrived and grown even bigger through the years.
Secondly, a plague killing people doesn't really give people a choice. Riders that left flatland behind, whether they went to different disciplines of BMX, or just quit entirely, They had a choice in doing so.
After the "great pestilence", flatlanders that continued and progressed probably did love flatland more then the people that quit.
-
flaTTech, I would say having the Austin guys to ride with is indeed a luxury many don't have, but honestly, most of my riding I do by myself away from everyone. It's been more of a personal journey and goal for me. I love the challenge. Never been interested in comps, and have never competed(even when I was good enough to do well). I rode street for many years by myself too. But that's just me. I'll ride BMX in some form or another my whole life...that's why I am content. I am satisfied with what BMX has given me in life. I do want more, but that's just personal growth.
But to each their own...
-
I completely understand what you are saying Tod, and your BMX journey doesn't sound that different then mine. I have almost always rode flatland by myself, and it has always been a very personal journey and goal oriented challenge for me also. I enjoy riding alone, I have gone as long as a ten year stretch without riding with another flatland rider. I did ride other forms of BMX with some other riders though. I too have never been concerned about contests (although I do enjoy the motivation that the online battles give me to get some of my stuff filmed), so I didn't even really seek them out. During this stretch of time was before the internet, and It started to feel like I was on a deserted flatland island, because I really didn't know what the state of flatland was even in. What I did know, was there wasn't any flat riders that I could find in my area. I enjoy riding alone, however I think it would be nice to have a large scene, and a choice to ride with many other flat riders without a lot of travel. This would be way more likely if there was huge interest in flatland.
Although making a living with flatland was never really one of my goals, I think it would be good for flatland if that avenue was available for a large number of the top riders. This also requires a much larger interest in flatland.
I have told people, my ultimate goal with riding was to ride for as long as I possibly can. I too will always have a BMX bike in my life, even if I had it to just cruise around...
-
After the "great pestilence", flatlanders that continued and progressed probably did love flatland more then the people that quit.
That's not really the issue in question. The issue is: was it good for the sport?
After watching the simple session videos I realized that street may also have a lot of posers who are not really in it for the love of it. Street would bottom out if all those guys and the sponsors left. Should that happen? Would it be good for street?
-
No, it was not good for the sport of flatland.
All types of riding has riders involved that have drastically different skill levels. Because I believe there are lower skilled level riders that do love riding, and are riding for the love of it, I agree with how you are describing a "poser" that they are not really in it for the love of riding, and because of this they probably don't put much effort into it. Keep in mind, that to be at a really high level in street/park a rider has to put themselves into a very high risk of danger.
I would agree that there are probably many "posers" in street, especially since there is a larger riding base, and it could possibly bottom out if they all left..
I would hope that would't happen. And no, it would not be good for street, companies, or BMX in general...