And there definitely are people riding flat on long bikes. An obvious example is Matthias Dandois, he currently rides with a TT of 21" .
Really the only thing that will truly hinder progression is not practicing. You can likely learn just about any trick on most setups, some things will be easier on a shorter bike and some things will be easier on a long bike. There really isn't an ideal setup, there will be pros and cons either way. I am over 6 feet tall and have ridden very short bikes (1999 Hoffman EP, for example), long bikes like my current setup and everything in between. Progression happened on every bike whether it was short or long.And there definitely are people riding flat on long bikes. An obvious example is Matthias Dandois, he currently rides with a TT of 21" .
I think it's imperative that we start an official Height / Bike / Frame database for beginners looking for information on what size frame they should get to even someone who thinks they might be riding the wrong frame. Or even someone looking for something new. In my opinion, people put waaay too much emphasis on top tube length. Not only is rear end length just as important..but wheelbase is the most important thing on a flatland bike. RULES - NO GUESSINGONLY ACTUAL DATA ALLOWEDTHANKS! 1) Post your height2) Your brand and model of frame3) Your top tube length(s)4) Your rear end length(s)5) Your wheelbase (or wheelbases)You can also add other information like whether you ride a zero offset fork or offset, crank length, stem length, etc. Comments on whether the bike feels cramped or spacious are important too. Any vital information.This information is vital for people. Especially beginners. It's one thing to read about something. It's another to see what people actually use in real life according to their height and/or weight. This could help someone new from buying the wrong frame and/or wasting money / having to go through the process of selling a frame they hate to get another one. I'll go first Me - Just over 5' 8" tall 130-135 pounds depending on the time of yearLanky build (think caucasian version of Takahiro Ikeda)2013 St. Martin Ten 17.9" top tube12.1" Rear 30.5" Wheelbase125mm Profile cranksZero offset forksFirst off - Very few St. Martin frames are the actual length they are advertised as. That's just a fact. My friend Wes and I have owned just about every St. Martin frame ever made at one point or another. We have both meticulously measured them and most of them are shorter than advertised. The 17.9" top tube Ten by St. Martin is actually 17 5/8". MUCH shorter than 17.9". Keep this in mind as we go forward. Feels cramped up front. Awesome for Hang Five type tricks. VERY squirrely for whiplash / front wheel tricks because the frame is very short and not very stable..so it doesn't work very well as a counter balance. You have to compensate with your body. Also, with light tires like KHE Mac 1's, the front wheel can unintentionally hop during Fire Hydrant type tricks. It just seems to have no anchor. A heavier set of tires and/or pegs on each end of this bike would do it justice, I think. You need short cranks on this frame. Otherwise, they're just ridiculously in the way. Overall, I think this frame would be PERFECT for someone between 5' 1" and 5' 6". Especially if you have short limbs and not monkey arms like I do. ===============================2013 St. Martin Ten 18.8" top tube12.1" rear31.5" Wheelbase145mm Profile cranksZero offset forksAgain, this St. Martin frame is actually 18 5/8"...not 18.8 as advertised. Very comfortable up front. You can use a 26mm stem or 40-45mm stem and still feel comfortable on this bike. After riding it for a long time with a 28mm stem, I switched to a 35mm Colony Exon stem and it made the bike feel perfect for me. An inch doesn't sound like much..but the handling between this frame and the 17.9 Ten listed above is NIGHT and DAY. Frame works excellent as a counter balance and I'd say it's perfect for anyone between 5' 5" and 5' 10" tall. My only complaint is that I wish the frame was actually 18.8" because I grew up riding a frame that had a top tube which was almost exactly that size. ==================================2013 St. Martin Voodoo19.3" top tube12.1" rear32" wheelbase125mm crankszero offset forkAnother St. Martin top tube scandal. I measured this one right away. From the Gyro tab holes to the center of the seat tube is 19 1/4". Not 19.3 as advertised. Close enough, though. I literally just built this bike yesterday. Generally, a 19.3" top tube would be a deal breaker for me because that usually means a longer rear end. However, not in this case. The rear end is still only 12.1" which keeps the wheelbase length down while giving you TONS of room up front. As of right now, I'm running a 35mm stem on it. I don't have the experience on it to get into great detail..but I can tell you this - If I wasn't old school and didn't still use the top tube for tricks, the bike would be too long for me..and probably anyone around 5' 8"..unless you like a LOT of room. However, I still launch decades from the top tube and it feels amazing. I love having the space up front with a super short rear end. When I have more experience with this bike, I will come back and edit this to add more information. I've added photos of each frame / rig in order of listing below.
Hello classytouch, nice to have you here!Yeah, the street look... I don't like it so much but almost all riders follow this trend at the moment. This is why frames like the Autum are rare.About the TT length: 0.5" can feel a lot! I would not choose more difference (although in the end you can get used to anything). But it depends a lot on the overall geometry! When you have a longer TT with HT and ST angle being the same, your seat is more far away from the handlebar (as long as you do not compensate with your seat position (as long as you don't use pivotal seats)). But you could have the same effect for example with a lower ST angle... For backwheel tricks the wheelbase is very imortant for your overall feeling. So you need to consider this parameter and it is influenced by the CS length, ST angle, HT angle and TT length. This may help to estimate how much different another frame might feel.
Quote from: DaddyCool on June 24, 2020, 09:44:47 AMHello classytouch, nice to have you here!Yeah, the street look... I don't like it so much but almost all riders follow this trend at the moment. This is why frames like the Autum are rare.About the TT length: 0.5" can feel a lot! I would not choose more difference (although in the end you can get used to anything). But it depends a lot on the overall geometry! When you have a longer TT with HT and ST angle being the same, your seat is more far away from the handlebar (as long as you do not compensate with your seat position (as long as you don't use pivotal seats)). But you could have the same effect for example with a lower ST angle... For backwheel tricks the wheelbase is very imortant for your overall feeling. So you need to consider this parameter and it is influenced by the CS length, ST angle, HT angle and TT length. This may help to estimate how much different another frame might feel.Hey DaddyCool,I really appreciate your taking time to answer my question! I've been riding for some time but for some reason never truly understood the mathematics of frames with respect to rider and fit. I know some of it is trial and error but I also want to get something i'll be really happy with...Something with some STYLE too! I think I'm going to give the Autum a shot..... Also... Where can one get an Ares? It seems Flatlandfuel doesn't have as many frame options as they used to have.
I'm happy to see this thread getting information added to it. As for some of the replies about frame length being subjective, they are right. But there are some factors there that can be weighed out by the person riding the bike and then factored into the information on this thread. As some people like what they're using to feel a little small and some people like to feel like they are climbing on monkey bars. I've been riding my St. Martin Voodoo with a top tube of 19.3 (which measures in at 19.25" according to my measurements). St. Martins actual lengths can be different than stated. A lot. Again, I'm 5' 8" and I do a lot of tricks off the top tube (old school style). I have found that I really like a little room up front..but my issue is that I like a short wheelbase..so having a longer top tube with a 12" rear end really works for me. My wheelbase is about 31.75"..so for having a longer top tube, I'm still rocking a very short base. I just rock super short cranks (125mm) so my feet don't catch on either the front tire or the rear pegs when I'm on the pedals. There are advantages to all three of my rigs. Since they are identical in every way except top tube length, I can give you the lowdown on the pros and cons of all three now. I read some old school posts. So I'll add some info about these more modern frames with old school style tricks. 17.9" tt Ten - Super nimble. Whiplash / steamroller type tricks equal the rear end rotating without even trying. The shortness makes it a little harder to balance when rolling, though. The frame isn't as much of a counter weight. Old school style decades and off-the-top-tube tricks feel cramped. 18.8" tt Ten - That inch makes a difference. Counterweight of the frame feels a little more natural to me when rolling. Less twitchy. Off-the-top-tube and other old school style tricks feel a little more natural on this rig.19.3" tt Voodoo - Feels the most comfortable up front for old school style tricks. It's like a cross between the feel of an old school Haro Master and a Haro Sport. I'm only talking top tube length. Coincidentally, I'm running a 45mm stem on my rigs now..and it's the exact reach of the old school Group 1 stems from back in the day. Switching from the 17.9" Ten to the 19.3" Voodoo will have you immediately taking note of the differences. Whiplash / steamroller type tricks will have me banging the rear tire of the Voodoo off the ground until I get used to it. And it requires a little more work to get the rear end rotating. If you are going to be doing strictly old school type tricks, I recommend using a top tube from 18.75" - 19.5"...Or longer if you're into that. I'm just going by the fact that most frames from back in the day had top tube lengths of 18.75 to 19.5..and from modern testing, that's what feels the most comfortable for me. For reference, The 87,88,89 Haro Master top tube was 18.75" and I believe the Kawahara Bravo Pro and the General Osborn Pro had 19.5" top tubes. But the rear triangles on all of them were 15.5-16.5 inches...and longer. Insane. But that whole 18.75-19.5" buzzer zone is the perfect amount of room to utilize the top tube. And with today's shorter rear ends, you can still take advantage of having a shorter wheelbase. The best thing about todays frames is the shorter rear end length and the shorter wheelbase. I've told a thousand people a longer version of this story..but I used to complain back in '89 that freestyle bikes had the same rear end length as a lot of racing frames. It made no sense to me. I also thought the top tube should be much lower (standover height) and I thought we should be using zero offset forks. It took them well over a decade to start doing it. One of the reasons I went new school was seeing that what I was thinking about those years ago had turned into reality.