Author Topic: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics  (Read 7708 times)

Offline Mr News Bot

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Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« on: September 04, 2007, 08:12:47 PM »
Chad Johnston is working on the first objective scoring system for flatland. So far he put more than 4 years of work into it and some of you already saw the first results in form of the Ground Tactics DVD.
As part of the system he is collecting every known trick ( the TRIKtionary ) and gives them scores ( the Matrix ).
The next step was to think about a contest format that could use this system and that's where you can get involved. Chad is starting an online flatland competition, the first round is about to start and you'll be able to submit videos of your runs on www.bmxgroundtactics.net.
The whole system is still in an experimental stage and not supposed to revolutionize contests overnight, but it's a step in an interesting direction for our sport. So check out what Chad has to say: The story of Ground Tactics.


Offline Gensanity

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2007, 11:02:46 PM »
interesting

TJ Perry

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2007, 11:49:05 PM »
You know what, I think it's really f*cking immature of him to try to mock me or take a dig at me in the interview. I never poked fun at him or attacked him personally, I just laid out some seriously critical flaws in a system I had to PAY to see or understand. For him to take a jab at me because I compared the system he has in place to Tony Hawk (And I don't give a damn if he's played it or not, the similarities on screen are striking in how familiar they are to the game) is pretty lame in my book. Go after the message that I said, not me. It gets nothing done.

The reason the AFL/ESPN/CFB were all put to rest wasn't because of lack of organized effort or anything like that. Riders didn't come raiding the judging table with pitchforks and brimstone. It was about money, time, and effort. All three were lacking in every one of those instances so to automatically assume it was because the judging system was whack (Which in all the years of my competing, the only time the judging system was screwed up was when you had an idiot on the judging panel, which was rare to begin with).

Nobody in their right mind will look at the system he's put in place and find a way to market it. It's too convoluted, it's too complicated, and frankly, it's impossible to judge in real time. How can anyone sponser nothing but videos? Not to mention the fact that it's going to take sooo much more time to sit there and pick out everything.. trick by trick.. add up the scores.. and then deduct the number of times X rider does one trick compared to another. It's just not going to work. Period. Not to mention that a set score for difficulty in one trick is sooooo subjective from rider to rider. If you have a rider like Simon Marsan, who does super hard rolling switches that are pretty fresh and new (In other words, no score because nobody else is really doing them) but he finds some easy switch steamroller hop that most other people can do difficult... should he get more or less points for being good at something and not at another? Even watching the video you see really difficult switches being done by Justin, only to be beaten by Pete who repeats alot of the same switches and tricks over and over. It's just totally flawed in my eyes as I had pointed out in my last review and NOTHING in either the interview or some of the comments that were made on the forum did anything to address anything that I pointed out.

Judging worked fine for what, like twenty or so years? Yeah there are always discrepancies, but they pale in comparison to the complications that will arise from switching to this format.

So Chad, before you start swapping letters around in my name or taking a condescending attitude to what I say, address some of the criticisms I've put out. I know you want to push flatland, but if you can't explain the system in the face of someone picking it apart, then how on earth can it be applied in real life?

Offline ColinSmith

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2007, 11:57:31 PM »
I think the big issue with a objective system is that if it does not give the "right" subjective results, people will complain until it is tweaked to match them. Then if it is giving the same results as a subjective system but takes 20 minutes per combo to judge.....

I think it would be really good to have a system that was consistent and worked, but I think the most realistic way of getting that is to have a pool of really qualified judges who have trained on a chosen scoring system and will be flown in and paid to judge an event. Problem there of course is the cost.....

Offline Le_Polonais

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 12:38:51 AM »
All i have to say is

Justin's hitchiker kickflip to backpacker in the sample video is worth 40 points

From what i can deduce out of looking at Pete's run, putting a hang5 to a halfpacker jump over to 3 turbine steamrollers barflip out or something is probably worth around 50 points at the least... So............

GAME OVER, MILLER.

If someone comes out and does a deathtruck one foot standing on the headtube for 10 seconds and lands it, what is that worth? 70 points because it's not in a combo?

Chad's system would be great to judge contests if people were robots and everyone did the SAME predetermined tricks and switches without any originality... Flatland = Originality as we all know so i feel that this system is trying to push in the opposite direction of what flatland actually is.

Maybe this system would work pretty well for an online contest series (because of the separation of single trick//set of tricks categories) But it would be total crap in a contest for the reasons mentionned in the beginning of the post....

Offline x james x

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 01:15:17 AM »
What I forsee is people having to put their style aside in order to do tricks and combos that would manipulate the system, Taking away almost all freedom to express. Props to him for his effort and hard work, I just don't think its the end all answer.

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2007, 04:04:32 AM »
relax TJ he meant PJ Terry, not you.

Offline yoksthed0pest

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2007, 04:49:05 AM »
Well, I can't really offer a better solution right now, but I just feel like a system like this is somewhat limiting. I think riders will be so pre-occupied with the TRIKtionary (400 trick list), that they kind of deny themselves creative freedom to explore and challenge their own abilities and imagination, spontaneity.
I think it is easier to execute a trick "technically", but it's even more breath-taking when a rider's style has personality. I think that quality would get lost in a system like this.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 04:50:59 AM by yoksthed0pest »
09.26.07 - Signal
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Offline Sweatpants

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 04:59:47 AM »
exactly. let's say two riders did identical runs, back to back. technically, in this system, the scoring would be a tie.  however, in the eyes of the other riders, and likely the crowd, the best rider would be clear. one would outshine the other on the same exact run. style is subjective, and in a fully digitized, objective system, style becomes unnecessary and fruitless.  it has the potential to make flatland become more like billiards, or a game of 3 turbine variations to rack points. if my opinion is flawed, please let me know.

cheers

*edit:

i'd like to mention that my opinion is just that. i still support the work Chad is doing and his impressive desire to find a better solution to the judging problem. my viewpoint is meant to be constructive, not de-structive
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 05:02:47 AM by Sweatpants »

Offline Kev

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 03:02:51 PM »
All i have to say is

Justin's hitchiker kickflip to backpacker in the sample video is worth 40 points

From what i can deduce out of looking at Pete's run, putting a hang5 to a halfpacker jump over to 3 turbine steamrollers barflip out or something is probably worth around 50 points at the least... So............

GAME OVER, MILLER.

If someone comes out and does a deathtruck one foot standing on the headtube for 10 seconds and lands it, what is that worth? 70 points because it's not in a combo?

Chad's system would be great to judge contests if people were robots and everyone did the SAME predetermined tricks and switches without any originality... Flatland = Originality as we all know so i feel that this system is trying to push in the opposite direction of what flatland actually is.

Maybe this system would work pretty well for an online contest series (because of the separation of single trick//set of tricks categories) But it would be total crap in a contest for the reasons mentionned in the beginning of the post....

I have to agree...this is def. pushing our sport in the wrong direction.

And as I said before, I've agreed with TJ ever since I watched the vid with him.  I couldn't really make sense of anything going on in the video.  But, good luck with that.  Maybe it will work out as an online format, but it's gonna be a hella lot of work.

Offline JFos

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2007, 05:19:03 PM »
I think Chads interview explains that its still a work in progress.

Id say having some basis for calculating tricks would be good..but also supplement it with lets say originality like you guys are saying.

kind of like how scores are calulated a % difficulty a % originality...I think having a standard value of tricks would be good..now maybe some of his points are off a little..but he speaks the truth when he says tricks should have a standard value.

I agree it'd be silly for that hang five jump over to turbined steams to be better than a hitchiker kickflip to backpacker...wait so it wouldnt...thats means I might could beat Justin!!!!.. :mellow:

I think Chads system should be incorporated but maybe it'd be 50% of a more overall view.

I agree things are too subjective right now..hell people lose for going first or last in an amature class of 40 riders just based on the judges fatigue...

you cant just go purely by opinions either...hell I sat there as a judge in a contest before to have mine and two others opinions tossed out just because of one other rider/judges opinion on one rider...and it was totally based on originality. So I'd say its soemwhere between here and there. I do give Chad props for actually developing a pionts system for tricks. It has a use. Maybe it shouldnt be the end all say so..but its the right path.

If you took his system and plied it to another independant and purely opinion based originality score you might have something very reliable.

Its better than four guys sitting there doing their own thing on paper recovering from that party night before thats always at those damned contest's..hick up.

I think Chad also pointed out that tricks under certain points would get tossed..so perhaps that means those trubined steams wouldnt add in..just the jump to them.

Not clear on that in my own head though.
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Offline BMXFREESTYLE

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2007, 05:23:17 PM »
Flatland bmx Freestyle!

Offline lardpacker

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2007, 07:13:58 PM »
It might work for novice or AM class contests, but once style and originality kick in, I don't see this format going anywhere.

Offline Gensanity

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2007, 07:37:27 PM »
flatlandperu your avatar is awesome

I just like that people are trying to come up with other ways of doing things.
It will be interesting to ever see this in action.  Sounds like a lot of work was put into it and it would be a shame if it's just immediately shot down and killed without an actual attempt being made.

Yeah they should test it out on beginner runs first
there's no reason you couldn't use a system like this without discarding style.

Offline Mario_O

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Re: Interview: The story of Ground Tactics
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2007, 10:18:36 AM »
Damn.. all said... xd