Author Topic: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frames preview  (Read 43950 times)

Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2012, 05:25:18 AM »
I have a frame by PiR made with closed dropouts. While I agree its a neat idea it is as many said already, it is a limitation on what coasters you can use. I have a femaled nankai that I had machined, but most people aren't gonna spend the time to get custom made axles just so they can use it with a specific frame. I got it for the sheer novelty  and while I think its neat, its really not needed. If this is going to be a mass produced frame gotta give it full options rather than limiting it with only closed dropouts.

Also why did you decide to go with a mid bb instead of spanish?


Thanks for the feedback. I think there will be more selection of female axle freecoasters soon. I wouldn't have made it with enclosed dropouts if I didn't think there would be.
Full options is a possibility. Most seem to want it now.
I decided to go with  Mid because it's more widely used on frames & it's stronger. Would you suggest using a Spanish bb for any reason?
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Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2012, 05:28:09 AM »

Sorry but that sucks and you will loose interest as people will like your frame have the money to buy it but wont as they dont want to get a female freecoaster.

Why give people the choice in brakes or no brakes but they can only use a certain freecoaster???




Thanks the comment.  Do you like the frame without the Enclosed Dropouts?
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byke

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2012, 07:59:25 AM »
Josh,
I never want to discourage anyone who is interested in cycle design and looking to create.

However, by your drawings and questions regarding market feedback - I think you are currently jumping the gun with your abilities and understanding of design (at the moment). I am not saying you cant do it, but I can see areas where I think it shows an infancy in your understanding. And that if you ever did choose this as a profession in the future, and were to look back at "past work" - you would be able to see this too.

But I applaud your resilience shown on these forums.

Predicting the future in regards to what parts riders will use is obviously important, especially when thinking along the lines of frame design. But if you are simply planning to go to Standard Byke co. and say, build me this frame and I will re-decal and re-brand them to create my own "company" - I fear you are doomed to fail from the start. As many frame builders like standard have key aspects/detailing to their frames which are often small forms of design signatures if you will. Partially relating to "style" - but also much of the time relating to making life simpler for the builder and reducing cost.

Previously I had asked if you could upload a 2D blueprint, so I could get an idea of to what degree of detailing and information you were planning to send the builder, as this is extremely important. This is not just a drawing that shows TT measurements, but also key other information like tube thickness, angles and so on.
Normally a frame blueprint n 2D usually looks something along the lines of this :
http://www.spanner.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tibridedrawing.JPG
If you have something I like this, I would love to have a look over it and help give advice in areas I may be able to.

Again, I really dont want to discourage you and will even go as far to try and help you get a better understanding of areas I think you are lacking. But I really think you are focusing to much on global feedback and not on design. So I would strongly suggest that you now reduce your reliance on customer feedback as you have enough of that, and focus more on the design aspects to see if you and your friends can think of new ideas as this is what really gets people excited as it leads to a product with the marketing power of being able to offer something that is different, and not the same old thing but with a 1/4" longer or shorter somewhere.

While your also located in the US - why not expand your understanding of frame building and sign up for these classes? http://www.bikeschool.com/classes - They offer a great insight into how frames are made and could give you a better idea of both material behavior and how it can be used.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 02:46:08 PM by byke »

Offline K.Wong

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2012, 08:05:43 AM »
enclosed dropouts might work for street/ park bikes but for flatland? ...

not many people i know off would do grinds on a flat-specific bike as it's 1) too twitchy; 2) voids warrenty; 3) too weak and light to endear confidence.

if you said the enclosed dropouts were meant to prevent the slots from spreading open, i'll buy that as i've seen that happening with paper thin, machined internally dropouts that you find on new bikes.

have drop out slots horizontally, but enclosed? with stamped cut away lines for 14mm and 10mm of course.

female hubs might be all the rage, but till you suffer the anguish of have a broken bolt or rounded-off hex-head that is stuck in the hub that is still on the frame, you will never appreciate the beautiful simplicity of the standard 'normal' axle.

just imagining having to use a sabre saw or hack saw to cut through the harden-steel of 22mm sized lock nuts to get to the 10mm bolt, with the wheel on one side and peg on the other gives me the shivers... and remember as the dropout is enclosed, you can't use a mallet to bash the wheel out like you would with a 'normal' sloted dropout and male axle. 

Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2012, 05:32:54 PM »
Josh,
I never want to discourage anyone who is interested in cycle design and looking to create.

However, by your drawings and questions regarding market feedback - I think you are currently jumping the gun with your abilities and understanding of design (at the moment). I am not saying you cant do it, but I can see areas where I think it shows an infancy in your understanding. And that if you ever did choose this as a profession in the future, and were to look back at "past work" - you would be able to see this too.


Thank you for the comments. I'm learning as I go. Plus, with the help of other companies here in the USA helping me long the way. I understand frame building pretty good imo.


Predicting the future in regards to what parts riders will use is obviously important, especially when thinking along the lines of frame design. But if you are simply planning to go to Standard Byke co. and say, build me this frame and I will re-decal and re-brand them to create my own "company" - I fear you are doomed to fail from the start. As many frame builders like standard have key aspects/detailing to their frames which are often small forms of design signatures if you will. Partially relating to "style" - but also much of the time relating to making life simpler for the builder and reducing cost.


How is it possible to know what I'm building/what Standard is building for me? This is just a preview and I have given them much more than this. I see other companies in the industry, well actually most that get other companies to make there frames. They have succeeded. But that doesn't pertain to me and determine if my company will "fail" or not? Absolutely not. You will see what are products are all about when the proto comes along. :) Which is very soon.
(I do not believe in failure. Unless you stop trying to reach your goals because of a set back then yeah that could be failure. But that's not me.)

Previously I had asked if you could upload a 2D blueprint, so I could get an idea of to what degree of detailing and information you were planning to send the builder, as this is extremely important. This is not just a drawing that shows TT measurements, but also key other information like tube thickness, angles and so on.
Normally a frame blueprint n 2D usually looks something along the lines of this :
http://www.spanner.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/tibridedrawing.JPG
If you have something I like this, I would love to have a look over it and help give advice in areas I may be able to.

Those 2D blueprints are something I will not just give out.(I know exactly what a 2D blueprint is also.) What company does that? Not many. I don't just give out my total designs that would be like saying "here, you can copy this". I'm not in this business to just give out all ideas I created and what I worked for. For someone could be looking to copy and make money. I know business.

Again, I really dont want to discourage you and will even go as far to try and help you get a better understanding of areas I think you are lacking. But I really think you are focusing to much on global feedback and not on design. So I would strongly suggest that you now reduce your reliance on customer feedback as you have enough of that, and focus more on the design aspects to see if you and your friends can think of new ideas as this is what really gets people excited as it leads to a product with the marketing power of being able to offer something that is different, and not the same old thing but with a 1/4" longer or shorter somewhere.

If you read the description of the frame you can see I'm already using material/designs that no one has ever used in flatland. If I gave out the wrong idea that I'm relying on people here to design my products I apologize to the riders. I'm not here to do that. What I'm doing is getting the majority vote and applying that to MY own designs to make a better product that will appeal to the majority. I'm looking to succeed in my company, not make the same things that are on the market today. I've listened to everyone from everywhere about product ideas. But where do I get most of my creativeness, ideas, motivation? From myself. I built this company for the riders & to make better products than what's out now. I'm not turning over my company to riders and saying "look, here you go, take it, suggest it and I'll build it." I'm getting involved with the riders to help me build what they want but still using my designs also. Tell me this, what other company has gone to the riders directly to ask them what they want? Anyone? Seems they are all about their companies and cater to there riders...That is why you still have people wanting more, wanting what these companies won't give them. But there is nothing wrong with that. I'm going my own way. And a few of ways I'm doing this is listening to the riders & progressing with my products.
If you really want to help me with frame design knowledge and tell me where I am lacking please do so. PM me. What are your credentials in frame building also?

Thank You
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 05:35:52 PM by Joshua S. »
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Offline stuntnuts

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2012, 05:55:29 PM »
byke you're such a dream crusher.  ;D

Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2012, 06:11:14 PM »
enclosed dropouts might work for street/ park bikes but for flatland? ...

not many people i know off would do grinds on a flat-specific bike as it's 1) too twitchy; 2) voids warrenty; 3) too weak and light to endear confidence.

if you said the enclosed dropouts were meant to prevent the slots from spreading open, i'll buy that as i've seen that happening with paper thin, machined internally dropouts that you find on new bikes.

have drop out slots horizontally, but enclosed? with stamped cut away lines for 14mm and 10mm of course.

female hubs might be all the rage, but till you suffer the anguish of have a broken bolt or rounded-off hex-head that is stuck in the hub that is still on the frame, you will never appreciate the beautiful simplicity of the standard 'normal' axle.

just imagining having to use a sabre saw or hack saw to cut through the harden-steel of 22mm sized lock nuts to get to the 10mm bolt, with the wheel on one side and peg on the other gives me the shivers... and remember as the dropout is enclosed, you can't use a mallet to bash the wheel out like you would with a 'normal' sloted dropout and male axle. 

Hey, thanks for the feedback.
What I was talking about in regards of holding up to anything, I'm not designing a street/park frame. I'm saying it will be strong enough to take all of that. If you've seen the PARK frame, this frame is a shrunken down version of it. But, with different specs. We have tested the PARK frame extensively had had no problems with it. So applying this to a flatland frame will only make it stronger. Plus, we are going to test everything before we put it out to the market.
Yes, enclosed dropouts are stronger than normal ones. and they will not pinch or spread open. (I do not believe in paper thin, holey dropouts.) :)
Sure, I can have stamped cut away lines for 14mm and 10mm. If others want that I will do it. But, it's an add on and it costs. But if more people would want it I'll do it. I've been thinking of this also for a while plus stamping measurements of the chainstay lengths on the dropouts. I know alot of people complain about how far, how much, where there wheel is in regards to the length of the rear end. Well, I think this will help out some with having exact measurements. Plus, the rear axle slammed will be where it should be. Not for example, 13" chainstay length slammed and it be 13.2, because the end of the dropout slot determines the rear end length and not the axle.The center of a 3/8" axle on this frame will be right at 13".
Sounds like you might could use some tips on how to properly install female axles... you listed some pretty ruff ways of making an axle break and getting it out. ;) kidding about the first sentience.
Have you seen or have you had personal experiences with axles breaking or striping? And how did it happen? I would appreciate this info. As I need to know this for further improvements, if needed, for this frame. I've never had a stripped or broken a female axle as of yet. I install my parts with care. I'm not saying that it can't happen either. 
I will discuss this further with my manufacture and come up with ideas on how this could be resolved or prevented if it ever happens.
I appreciate your concerns. Thanks.
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Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2012, 06:11:54 PM »
byke you're such a dream crusher.  ;D
haha
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Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2012, 06:20:06 PM »
Thanks guys for the comments, feedback, suggestions so far. Keep them coming! Positive or negative. The all help.

I recently found out that the Eclat & Ezra Freecoaster will come with female axles. And Nankai doesn't make freecoaster anymore???
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Offline EZChris

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2012, 06:59:31 PM »
Did someone just as Byke what his credentials in frame building were?




Hilarious.
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Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2012, 07:10:31 PM »
Did someone just as Byke what his credentials in frame building were?
Hilarious.

I do not know much about the guy or what he does. Do you know EZChris?
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byke

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »
Pm sent, so their is no drama or bad feelings.

Just for the record, Ox platinum has been used many times before in flat related products.
For instance all the Standard Tao's that cracked at the seat tubes were made of ox platinum.

As for closed dropouts, again. its been done on flat frames before.
Jad Sherman comes to mind.

Either way good luck, I really don't want to discourage you.
Maybe its better for me to keep mum and let you grow through your own actions.

Either way I truly wish you good luck.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:43:41 PM by byke »

Offline Joshua S.

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2012, 08:46:00 PM »
I know about Standard using the tubing for their past flatland frames. But that's the only instance other than the shaman. As for the cracked tubes that will be discussed with my manufacture on how to prevent this.
The Jad Sherman was a flatland frame? Are they still in business and being sold? I'll have a look into this.
By no means are you discouraging me whether intentionally or not! :)

Thank You!
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Offline thestraw

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2012, 09:04:49 PM »
i rode a st martin, a mankind alive and a quamen chyphyr, all of which are narrow diamond frames(which i do like the look of) and i broke the sh*t out of each of 'em in the exact same place, near the head tube.  the down tubes buckled on 2 of them and the tt on the quamen.  would a gusset eliminate this problem?

For them possibly. How & who these frames will be built by and the type of material will not require gussets but the strength problem with those frames in those particular areas will be discussed.
What were you doing when those broke? And the down tube buckled on 2 of em?! WOW.
dude i was just shredding

Offline Revig

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Re: Modern Bikes prototype flatland frame preview...
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2012, 09:21:08 PM »

Old topics about these subjet are on that board,
for example: http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?topic=32094.0

and stop using a "blogspot" website, make your own, that will be usefull for your image now and later