I, Joe Kickass, hereby suggest retro tricks be integrated into Modern Flatland

[2flat2furious]

I had experiences with spectators all the way until now when I show my friends videos of different people riding. I was using 2001 as an example of something over a decade old garnering the same reaction as things being done today. Not sure how that escaped you but there it is.

Contest attendance hasn't really changed the last few years. Not sure why it's an issue. Either people will go or they won't. I haven't had any disposable income to go to an event so I can't go to anything, I'm sure it's mostly the same across the board for everyone.

Making open suggestions as to how pros should ride in order to please a group of spectators that aren't even there is armchar flatlanding as far as I'm concerned. You didn't start the topic but you've said just about the same thing. I've given up trying to figure out what makes the sport grow because it doesn't really matter at this point. It's either self sustaining or it isn't. Who gives a f*ck. Just ride.

Drawing attendance to events shouldn't be a priority. People will come, no matter what you do. They also won't come, no matter what you do.

[JoeKickass]

Drawing attendance to events shouldn't be a priority. People will come, no matter what you do. They also won't come, no matter what you do.

Well, that all depends. If the goal is to grow Flatland at least back to where it was in terms of exposure, then rider attendance and building an audience is a good priority.

And to think people won't come 'no matter what you do' is not at all believable. There is an audience and a market for everything. Of course, there needs to be funds and an infrastructure in place. Again, if there's no interest in doing that, and clearly there isn't, that's cool. I still dig riding and watching people ride and talking about elevating flatland -- i see no downside in that.

I would like to pat myself on the back for creating another robust thread brimming with solid contributions from all.

You're welcome,
JKA

[danger-us]

 It's actually a good suggestion, even if just to say that it would expand riders tricktionaries in general (is that going backwards or regressing?) Learning some variations, positions, combos and concepts from  10-15-20 years ago can simply be seen as a challenge to change up what has become mostly specialization these days. Don't get me wrong, i think that riders probably had to specialize and limit the range of tricks in order to excel to the crazy levels they have these days, and now we have seen such mad progression because of it. But many riders are afraid to depart from their "routines" because it has got them to where they are and they don't want to mess too much with that formula of success.

 I think there is nothing wrong with picking up a few older style tricks and throwing them into modern combos, but  i don't think many riders are interested because they are locked into certain styles, and have it in their heads that everything must "flow" or look a certain way. Not many riders are leaders in that they don't take the first step to do something un-trendy. They often wait to see what's going on in the sport and then do something similar.  Riders seem to want to have a uniformity in the look/style of their riding and run with a particular theme or two.

 Is there really no interest in doing some of the tricks that led to the tricks that led to today's tricks? Seemingly almost nobody is doing what JKA is suggesting? Not many riders are 40 years or older and still progressing and capable of putting together a combo that consist of examples of 25 years worth of tricks. To be completely honest, this is something that i have been wanting to do but cannot really ride. I tried to ride recently and got set back by either my immune system crashing or getting a cold virus or something. Now i sit in the house and suffer.

 There are soooo many tricks available to us and i think that JKA is just saying it would be  kinda neat to see a guy whipping and scuffing and "kick(ass)ing" and spinning and flipping and body/bike varialing and lashing and pumping and decading and turbining and even hopping all in one combo (front and back wheel, clockwise and counter, opposite and regular etc)... why would that be so bad? Flatland is apparently so much harder and better nowadays but hard and good could be a combo such as i described above as well.

 Nobody has to sacrifice what they can do or which progressive directions they are going in but it could be possible to also add in some of the roots of modern day styles, even if they look completely different...which i guess would be the point. It would be very dynamic in its appearance in that one combo contained stuff that seems so foreign to the other stuff in the combo. I don't think anything should be done on purpose to force spectator interest if it's not what a rider truly wants to do. Yet i can't help but imagine that it probably would be quite interesting to watch a rider bust out some combos showing glimpses of our entire flatland history up til now.

 In some of my excruciatingly boring Toronto demos, i sort of attempted a version of this, but just in separate combos. Of course i was not doing really modern stuff even back then, but did what i could to demonstrate some range...not because i thought that's what people wanted but because that's what i naturally felt like doing. It would be cool to see some riders with a genuine interest in and capability to display  the past/present and future.

 Don't worry, nothing can stop the runaway freight train that will always be whatever the trends and or next cutting edge tricks will be. Almost nobody has their bike set up to do what JKA suggested anyways.

 And JKA, you had to know TJ would  be against this idea....haha.

chase.

[byke]

lets entertain this idea.
What would be a good combo to throw a power mower into the mix? and would it require raditude?

[Johndoe050]

2flat2furious I think you are spot on. You are quit forward and direct but i think you are also correct.


The crowd can suck a pair of radnads:
You can never let flatland be influence by "the crowd". These people don't know what they are talking about. The crowd has a attention span of 20 minutes tops. And they respond the same no matter what discipline, whether it be street bmx, park bmx, juggling, breakdancing, skateboarding. They like what they are seeing but after 5 minutes they start making demands. "Can you do a backflip?", "Could you jump down from X?", "Could you jump on to Y?". "Can you walk on walls?" "Do you know that guy who rides on a fence (they are most likely refering to Danny Macaskill) can you do that?"

[jm]

old tricks will always have merit. sometimes i get bored with the current rotation of popular tricks and would like to see something different, even if it's not a new concept; just something revisited. as far as doing it for crowds, no. crowds don't warrant the path of riding, and they will clap at anything. do what's best, and keep exploring. the moment we start pandering to crowds is the moment we lose ourselves. be you to the max, and follow your interests. there's a wealth of old concepts just waiting to be re-mastered.

[2flat2furious]

It's actually a good suggestion, even if just to say that it would expand riders tricktionaries in general (is that going backwards or regressing?) Learning some variations, positions, combos and concepts from  10-15-20 years ago can simply be seen as a challenge to change up what has become mostly specialization these days. Don't get me wrong, i think that riders probably had to specialize and limit the range of tricks in order to excel to the crazy levels they have these days, and now we have seen such mad progression because of it. But many riders are afraid to depart from their "routines" because it has got them to where they are and they don't want to mess too much with that formula of success.

I'd agree with that. I think there are a few riders who are "stuck" in the types of tricks that they do because of the arc of their progression. I know I'm guilty of it to some extent. The flip side of it is that there are just some tricks that I might have learned once and never had any interest in doing again because either it wasn't fun for me, or too many people do it already/have done it.

 

I think there is nothing wrong with picking up a few older style tricks and throwing them into modern combos, but  i don't think many riders are interested because they are locked into certain styles, and have it in their heads that everything must "flow" or look a certain way.

This too. I think the Japanese are good about finding weird "glitches" in their riding and throwing in an unexpected trick. I say "glitch" because sometimes the tricks they tend to come up with look like they were trying a combo one way and realized this weird old trick could be thrown in to the middle or end of the combo, sort of like Moto's jump on the tire ride out of steamroller combos. Looks like he just fell off his bike that way and went ".....oh?...oh!".

Not many riders are leaders in that they don't take the first step to do something un-trendy. They often wait to see what's going on in the sport and then do something similar.  Riders seem to want to have a uniformity in the look/style of their riding and run with a particular theme or two.

I think the interesting thing about this is that the distinction between what is and isn't trendy isn't really made clear to people. I also think that there needs to be a distinction made between what is fun and what is simply people doing a trick because they think it's the hot new thing that people need to do to get into the cool kids club. That never really made much sense to me either way and to this day I have to struggle in order to identify which is which.

I also think that people who really do have a serious problem with trendy things should basically say so when a video of trendy tricks are posted. I'm still waiting for someone who bitches and moans about people being too trendy to flat out say as much when someone posts a video full of trendy tricks. Nobody does it though because they know it's easier to keep things in the abstract than to fully commit themselves to being a cock about it.

Is there really no interest in doing some of the tricks that led to the tricks that led to today's tricks? Seemingly almost nobody is doing what JKA is suggesting?

I didn't take a stance in opposition because it's a bad idea, I just think it's kind of silly for someone to suggest that it's even a remote reason why viewership and interest of the sport appears lower than it was before, or that the 90's were what they were because of the tricks they were doing. It had a lot more to do with Hoffman and the BS series and the new level of exposure the sport was getting than people scuffing more or less. We may as well blame the declining amount of spectators on the decline of the influence of the Seattle grunge scene while we're at it.

There are soooo many tricks available to us and i think that JKA is just saying it would be  kinda neat to see a guy whipping and scuffing and "kick(ass)ing" and spinning and flipping and body/bike varialing and lashing and pumping and decading and turbining and even hopping all in one combo (front and back wheel, clockwise and counter, opposite and regular etc)... why would that be so bad?

It wouldn't, but it would be like dictating to you what you need to put in a video part. Don't you think you know better than anyone else how you want your riding to appear?

Yet i can't help but imagine that it probably would be quite interesting to watch a rider bust out some combos showing glimpses of our entire flatland history up til now.

But that's what the dorkin boxed set is for

In some of my excruciatingly boring Toronto demos, i sort of attempted a version of this, but just in separate combos. Of course i was not doing really modern stuff even back then, but did what i could to demonstrate some range...not because i thought that's what people wanted but because that's what i naturally felt like doing.

Nobody needed to tell you to do that though. It just happened the way it happened because you felt like doing it that way. Most people don't have that inclination because they aren't that old or they have no interest in doing that trick. Most people also don't want crowds to go home and self immolate either which is what I hear happened to all the spectators after watching your demo.

/Jokes

And JKA, you had to know TJ would  be against this idea....haha.

I'm basically the plucky young  Maoist 1949 revolutionary that can't wait to set fire to all the temples so that the old ways will be turned to dust so yeah of course I'd be against it.

[tod miller]

lets entertain this idea.
What would be a good combo to throw a power mower into the mix? and would it require raditude?

I saw Dane Beardsley do this for sh*ts and giggles at the Texas Flatland Roundup.  He had so many rad, HARD combos...and then would casually throw in a brakeless Power Mower at the end of his combo.  No raditude...just plain rad.  He was pumped on old tricks...took photos of Rad Dad and me doing really old tricks at the OG that night.  Nothing new or hard was done...but just having fun.

I like his style...doing some of the hardest combos/tricks imaginable...but not above throwing down some old tricks. 

[pwh4130]

People seem to ride in the styles they learned.  My riding has an older feel because of my age and what I learned.  Guys riding for the last 5 years have a new school style.  To me, one is not better than the other.  It's all riding and there is good and bad, not old and new. 

Back in 88 when everybody started doing contest runs of 90% Kevin's tricks, it got boring to watch.  Before that people had different style.  Once "modern" tricks came in, many people went toward learning the newest thing rather than looking at their bike to come up with something new.  The choice was make up your own unknown trick or do something everyone agreed was rad.  It's still that way for the most part. 

If you are riding to progress flatland, then you are pissing up a rope.  If flat gets big again one day, fine.  If it stays underground, fine.  None of that matters when you are actually riding your bike.  Doing tricks is fun and it doesn't need to be anything more than that.  If your fun takes you into a progressive direction, that is great.  If it takes you to becoming the most dialed rider with your 20 tricks, great.  If you are the sketchiest guy at a contest but you are smiling the whole time, great.

[D]

Flatland is weird in that it is almost very self destructive - it reinvents itself every few years and among the younger crowd there is a oftentimes a bit of dismissal of riding that happened even just a couple of years ago.  Progress keeps going and everything generally keeps getting more difficult, and certainly riders are doing harder stuff than 10 years ago, and 100x harder than particularly the pre K. Jones 80's, but it's incredibly naive to mistake the age of something with it's difficulty level.  There are 20+ year old tricks that are every bit as difficult as what is being done now.  Not many of them, but they are there.


Does age of a trick make it not valid or good anymore?  Is a quad decade not an valid trick because it is 20+ years old?  What about a double? 

[jpoliti]

 so much and so little to say about all this. The good thing about flatland beeing such an unpopular practice, is that there is absolutely no pressure for anyone to do, or not do anything.

Trendy people can follow trends, good for them, other s can be creative if they feel creative...some others will only do old school tricks, and why not.

The more i think about it, there i see the "free" part of freestyle beeing not what we thought it to be (creativity), but the absolute lack of pressure, and need to do anything in any given direction. In simple words, just do what you want, your life does not depend on that, it's all personal pleasure in the end.

My way of seeing it is that it's only personal pleasure. For me it is the feeling of having a perfect flow and gliding without effort, it's just physical pleasure to link one trick with the other without effort. So i now only practice tricks wich feel physically good and natural to me.

BUt it 's all a persoanl choice, some like fighting with difficult tricks and succeeding, but it's all FREEstyle in the end and anyone is free to do what they feel up for.

No stress.

[Gary1]

BUt it 's all a persoanl choice, some like fighting with difficult tricks and succeeding, but it's all FREEstyle in the end and anyone is free to do what they feel up for.

No stress.
[/quote]

I think that last sentence said it all.Have fun,enjoy, and mix it up if you want.

[MICHELE]

BUt it 's all a persoanl choice, some like fighting with difficult tricks and succeeding, but it's all FREEstyle in the end and anyone is free to do what they feel up for.

No stress.

I think that last sentence said it all.Have fun,enjoy, and mix it up if you want.

yeah!

[danger-us]

I think it would be reasonable to say that without fans and even "arm chair riders" many of us would not have the Pro Status and sponsors we do. They buy parts and attend contests/events sometimes which gives us a salary and an audience. Sure, some can be annoying and flat out stupid (just like regular people) but it comes with the territory in that we can't control who makes up our sport..to whatever degree and however they contribute. I can see Pros being against posers because Pros put in real work, but it's that contrast that makes the better riders and Pros stand out. Arm chair riders should be cautious of what they say though since they may often not have the hands on experience in hardcore riding. But i can see how they do have a genuine interest in the sport and want to be involved in some way so they can often say things that are inaccurate or don't apply just for the sake of putting in their two cents and simulating real recognition.

The self immolation  was definitely a button pusher (TJ's specialty), and sure some riders and spectators might have been confused/frustrated or bored with my demos. But i often wonder why people can't adapt to something other than scratch DJ's and lyrics about weed/sex/guns/b**ches  and super hyped announcers fake karate kicking the riders in the back after their routines/combos, and just appreciate the riding. I don't have perfect compromise suggestion, but obviously my approach is extreme opposite of the environment of the average contest/event so i've never suggested everyone ride in silence.

The assumed difficulty and interest value of tricks are generally relative to the time era riders are in (for most riders). I've said this before but: a rider will usually channel all his skill into tricks in and right around his generation which means he will inevitably progress from whichever point he started on the evolutionary scale of flatland. Again generally speaking of riders of similar levels of talent, it was probably no more or less (give or take a bit) of a struggle for a modern rider to learn a modern trick/combo than it was for a 90's rider to do what he did back then. If you see it from this angle then you can't possibly champion one era over another. I personally think that the way a trick looks is secondary to the fun a rider is having and how he's challenging himself and progressing in whatever direction. I think it is somewhat dogmatic just to say that tricks nowadays are SO MUCH harder and better and more interesting.  My view may be such because i've seen it  from 83 til now but it is nonetheless an informed view based on more experience. Again, i think it it easy to have the tendency to favor what is being done in our own generation because our egos tell us that we are a part of this movement.

"but it's incredibly naive to mistake the age of something with it's difficulty level.  There are 20+ year old tricks that are every bit as difficult as what is being done now."

 AGREED!

"To me, one is not better than the other.  It's all riding and there is good and bad, not old and new."

Brett, i just talked to Kevola the other day and know about his move to York. he said he saw you on the freeway randomly which is crazy. I got your # from him and wanted to call you. I just have a couple questions/comments about your about quote. Just a pleasant inquiry to clarify. Fist you said that one is not better than the other, but followed by saying there is good and bad.  If there is good and bad then this implies one is better than the other. Secondly, good and bad (talking about anything) is definitely more subjective and vague than the more definitive old and new. So i would argue the opposite in that there can't ultimately be good and bad (based on so many perspectives), yet there can be old and new based simply on timelines which are clearly more objective and  un- disputable.  This is not to say that old or new is good or bad which is my point in that all the tricks  accumulatively are equally important in the grand scheme of things. Anyways,some point to ponder.

 One last thing. The Dorking box set shows some of the same riders doing what they did years ago and what they were doing around 2000, plus some other non Hoods riders doing different stuff from earlier eras etc which does show the history. but what we are talking about here  is one long combo that demonstrates glimpses of each time era. Seems like a straightforward difference.

chase

[johnu773]

Arm chair riders should be cautious of what they say though since they may often not have the hands on experience in hardcore riding. But i can see how they do have a genuine interest in the sport and want to be involved in some way so they can often say things that are inaccurate or don't apply just for the sake of putting in their two cents and simulating real recognition.

^^^I think that's why I took offence to TJ's  calling me an "arm chair rider"^^^


First off you should know a person before speaking about them or their history.
I've ridden since 85, endured the whole "dead era" of the late 80's early 90's.  Entered comps (although by 89 i had devoted myself more to ramp and street so they were ramp and street comps) since 89, and have done nothing but live and bleed bmx my entire life!!!


  In my heyday I was an expert level rider at best,  driving to davenport Iowa and supporting comps with 2-3 pro's in attendance (rick m, dmc and thorne) and doing my part to enter and support the sport when all hope seemed lost.  I DON'T WANT OR NEED glorification for it, I'm just trying to give a lil history of myself!


Worthless side note: 1st time I met chase was when he had his black standard and was living at the standard house...


fast forward to the present.


I'm no pro but I still love riding as much as I did then.  My amount of dedication is limited by family obligations work, 2 kids, etc., NOT desire or heart!  Don't judge me because you saw a pic of my bike in the bike check!
I rode all winter in our warehouse, Factory 43 in Chicago, or in another warehouse we have also.
I try to ride almost every day but let's face it, I'm old, busy with work and kids and probably won't ever get 1/2 of what i could do back then back again (thanks ramp, street and injuries/surgeries).  That said, does that make me a poser or armchair rider?  I don't think so!  I thought posers had nice bikes but "didn't" ride them?


 I can't speak for JoeKickAss, but I know I was NOT trying to tell a pro how to ride or what tricks to do.  What I was suggesting was that it would be nice to see some variety of styles come back. 
an example of which is right here in this thread.
Chase and Jesse are both rad riders, but the styles are completely different.
Now put the spinning of Matthias and Matt together.  they look similar to a point don't they?
If anything it was an attempt to get people (novices and pros alike) just to open their minds to other styles (hey mikey, try it, you might like it).


I apologize to anyone who had to deal with my ranting with TJ yesterday, I should have never lowered myself to that level (internet squabbling).  Chase, glad to see you're doing better and hope you ride another 20 years.