2012 Am Flatland Circuit "Think-Tank"

[AlanYoung]

A big reason why people push for more classes, or age specific classes, is that they want to be the SUPERSTAR for that class. How many times has someone pushed for a class, that they never entered in?Id rather be a big fish in a small pond, than a small fish in a big pond. This is the reason why we have so many classes now. Look at the beginner class from this last year.
 
Rd1 - 3riders
Rd2 - 9riders
Rd3 - 8riders
Rd4 - 3riders
Rd5 - 3riders
Only 2 riders hit 2 stops and another 3riders went to 3 stops. Nobody went to 4 or all 5 stops. This should be a Red flag that there are not enough traveling riders in this class for the event to make it worth while to do. A majority of the events BARLEY had enough to do a podium. If you wana keep the class than do a drawling because lets face it, they all are going to walk away with a prize. Honestly if you wanted to win the Beginner class this year all you had to do was enter 3 events and you WIN!!!......... LAME

[AlanYoung]

     Vet Class: This is a bit of an interesting topic to read/look into if you are for the Vet class. The Vet class had a total of 9 riders enter throughout the 3 events that had them. Thats only an average of 3 per event...like the beginner class, its only barley enough to do a podium.....LAME.
 
     Two of the riders that competed in the Vet class also competed in the other classes as well. They both did extremely well in the other classes, as one won the class at a event. They both placed in the top 4 of the Vet class too.
 
     There is a unwritten rule when you eat anything that has to be dipped and that is No double dipping. This needs to be the rule in contests too, unless it is a Best Trick contest. As a Best Trick contest is a seperate contest from the "run" style.
 
     It is like a mulligan in golf, if you do bad you get an extra try in a contest. If this is going to be a continuing thing, then why dont you give that opportunity to every other class/rider? I mean this whole Vet/Beginner class was started off by being fair. And to only grant this opportunity to "Well aged" riders is not being fair.

[stvnlpsly]

The thread has gone a bit off topic, but what else should I have expected from the boards here...

As for the different classes.  From the get go this year (as far as the Am Circuit was concerned) I made it a point to say that the Beginner Class and Veteran Class would be experimental.  No Year End Trophies were awarded this year for those classes.  I kept a running total of the riders/scores to document exactly what happen.  There are riders who have pushed for these classes and riders who have said we don't need them.  But talking about it rather than actually doing it and seeing live results are two different things.  I think this year has proven a point (similar to what Alan is saying) that these classes didn't have good participation across the board.  If the circuit moves forward, I stated earlier in this thread, that I don't believe a Vet Class is needed.

However, the number of riders is still up there to the numbers who entered "AM" only classes.  There has been a demand for at least some split for YEARS.  Alan and Jake are the ones who coined and created the Master Class and are now the ones saying we don't need it.  30-50 riders would attend Toronto contests and compete in "AM".  Participation dwindled and then Expert and Master and Beginner were added and now 5 riders might compete in Beg, 15-20 in Expert and 15-20 in Master.  I think that is still good participation (and the last two years has shown an increase in rider participation).  I think that some riders would decide to not compete if there wasn't a beginner class.  But at the same time some of them would move to expert of master.  I am all for Expert, Master and Pro Classes and I see no reason that this would be a problem.

Also, I don't see any reason why Steve should be at every event.  What costs really need to be covered here?  The website hosting, trophies, the shipment of prizes to the organizers of events.  We don't need tshirts, or Steve at every contest.

I don't understand were your hostility towards me has come from all year Shayne.  You are WAY off here on your statement/accusations.

-I go to each event because I compete at each event.
-If you ask Alan or Jake (Indy), Pat (JoMo) or Jamie, Dan or Chris (Toronto) I don't do any of the individual contest stuff.  Do I talk to these guys about the events before and after? Yes.  Do they need me there for their own contests? No.  However, they don't do anything on the circuit side of things.  Being at each event on the circuit is important.  Not to help with the event.  But to do all the other stuff that running and organizing the circuit entails.  I help with write ups of events. I help with post event distribution.  I have done interviews to help hype the events before and afterwards.  If Tunney interviews me and says "So how do you think the circuit is going so far?" and my answer is "I don't know, I haven't been to any of the rounds." How ridiculous does that sound?  And what kind of credibility does that give the circuit?
-When I said what the costs have been for the circuit, I also said that only a minor part of that was counted as my travel.  $1500 or $2000... maybe $150 of that is my travel costs.
-Events pay to have an MC there, or Judges. Events pay to fly out Fat Tony to cover the event, or Bobby to judge or Scott to MC.  They do this because it benefits the event.  Being a contest on the circuit benefits the event also.  Look at Toronto this year and tell me they would have had the same amount of riders show up (especially from the US) if it were not on the circuit.

It seems like Steve wants the extra money so he afford to hold his 2 contests of the 5 contest circuit.  If only 3 flatland contests can self-sustain themselves from their existing organizers (toronto, indy, jomo), then let it be. Don't raise money under the guise that its to run a flatland circuit, if its really just so you can afford to hold your own 2 additional contests and/or travel to all of the other events.

Seriously bro?  It seems I want extra money to hold my own contests?  I had no plans, NONE, to run a second contest.  The contests were not factored in to series costs ONE BIT!  I was approached by the Tuner Evolution guys to do a contest and agreed.  In part because it would be totally funded by them.  I used my contact from the Tuner Evolution contest to get in contact with the guys at the Buffalo Battle at the Border to run the last event last minute.  I didn't want the series to end without having a closing event.  Period.

I had/have no intentions on running an Am Circuit event in 2012.  This whole statement is just unfounded and a direct attack on me and my character and couldn't be further from the truth.

Done...

[AlanYoung]

        Jake and myself have pushed for the movement of adding the Master class for this year. And I saw a fine line of seperation among riders than in past years. As for the class underneith of it, you can call it whatever you please really. I am not saying call it Beginner or Expert class, but we need to look at the what level of riding is going on. If everyone is doing forkglides, steamrollers, pegwheelie's ect. ect. than go with the title Beginner. Anything else that includes nice combo's, and more than basic links go with Expert. A title is all that it is really though. The riding and tricks speak for itself regardless of what class your in.
 
     Now to Steve:
          I can understand how you are getting frustrated with all these off topic suggestions and chit-chat. What you need to do is filter all the input, regardless good or bad, and look for the things that need to be done for the group as a whole. My suggestion would be to act as a sole business man in the AM Circuit and nothing else. Yes, you can run the Circuit by your office without ever going to a contest. Simply put up the rules, scoring and event info and calculate the results from the event afterwards. Having a face to the operation is nice to have, but like you said, you did not help with the running of the actual event. No need to put more pressure and exposure to yourself than needed, and most of it seems to be negative. Once again i feel the need to let you know that being the face of anything, whether it is aBADthing, AM Circuit, FEMA, the President or whatever, you are going to get portrayed however the organization is going.Must take the good with the bad.

[Shayne]

Steve, I'm not trying to be hostile, I don't think I said anything hostile in my post.  I'm just pointing out that I highly doubt you need $2500-$3000 to run the circuit in 2012.

Seriously, you DO NOT need to be at every event that is on the circuit to make it work.  Toronto, Jomo, & Indy will be fine if you are not there.  If any of those contest organizers feel like they NEED you there, like they need judges, media, fat tony, whatever, then they can pay for your flight themselves.  If you want to be at every event so you can compete at every event, good for you, but you pay for that out of your pocket like every other travelling flatlander.  But seriously, you can run the circuit from your computer.  All you are doing is updating the website with a write-up and a photo or 2 for each round and points standings.  This stuff can be sent to you via email.  You don't have to be there in person.

So what exactly needs to be paid for?  Let the contest organizers run the events themselves like they've been doing with money from wherever they're lucky enough to get it from.  You just lay out guidelines so that the contests comply with the circuit and each other in regard to judging format, classes, points tallies. 


Web hosting, trophies, shipping costs.  What else is there?  This costs what, $500 tops?

JUST TELL ME WHY YOU NEED $2500-3000???

[2flat2furious]

-I go to each event because I compete at each event.
-If you ask Alan or Jake (Indy), Pat (JoMo) or Jamie, Dan or Chris (Toronto) I don't do any of the individual contest stuff.  Do I talk to these guys about the events before and after? Yes.  Do they need me there for their own contests? No.  However, they don't do anything on the circuit side of things.  Being at each event on the circuit is important.  Not to help with the event.  But to do all the other stuff that running and organizing the circuit entails.  I help with write ups of events. I help with post event distribution.

This is getting ridiculous.

I've consulted with the organizers at the events and they told me flat out they do not need you there in any capacity. There is nothing you do at the events that pertains to the circuit except man a stand that sells the products for the circuit. Is this profitable? No, not in the slightest which is why I don't want you to take what I'm saying as some kind of assault on your character. However, it also isn't productive at all.

I also find it physically impossible that you somehow managed to go to EVERY event on the circuit for 150 dollars. There is no absolutely no way your travel costs were that low.

I have done interviews to help hype the events before and afterwards.  If Tunney interviews me and says "So how do you think the circuit is going so far?" and my answer is "I don't know, I haven't been to any of the rounds." How ridiculous does that sound?  And what kind of credibility does that give the circuit?

Great, you've done some interviews. Why can't riders who are in the circuit be interviewed instead? Why does it need to be you? If Brian asks you how the circuit is going, and you're organized on the backend (which is by your own admission the majority of what needs to be done) you can say in full honesty that it's going well. Hype it up on a budget, but don't say that you NEED to be everywhere in order to make everything run smoothly because as I've said, the contest organizers have said otherwise.

-Events pay to have an MC there, or Judges. Events pay to fly out Fat Tony to cover the event, or Bobby to judge or Scott to MC.  They do this because it benefits the event.  Being a contest on the circuit benefits the event also.  Look at Toronto this year and tell me they would have had the same amount of riders show up (especially from the US) if it were not on the circuit.

Look at toronto in 2000 to now and tell me that you being there somehow made the turnout different Steve. It had nothing to do with you. Again, people who organized this have confirmed it. People were going to go whether it was part of the circuit or not. Maybe there were riders that got an extra bonus out of it being part, but the credit you give yourself for the turnout of this event is overestimated, and that's putting it politely.

I know you really want to shoulder a lot of this responsibility on your own, but you are linking to many random variables together and acting like without you being part of the equation none of it would have added up.

There is something very very distorted about the picture you are painting about your involvement with the circuit, and what the circuit actually does for each of the individual events, and I feel like you really need to come to terms with the reality of all of this before you start claiming that others are out to attack you for any of it. We're not, but we are suggesting the emperor is dressed a little more casually than he realizes if you catch my drift.

[stvnlpsly]

You guys are ridiculous. Period. I have stated over and over and over that I do not run the events or even help with the events.  Can you read? Seriously. You take everything everyone says on here and distort it so far beyond what was initially intended.  I never said I needed to be at the events to help the organizers.  I said I feel it is important to be at the events for all the other stuff that I work on that doesn't included running the contest.  Also, if you can read what I said instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions... I said that


"So travel/hotel etc costs are added into that. Not all, but some"


What don't you understand about NOT ALL BUT SOME!?  $150 is about what that "not all but some" equals.


I don't need to come on here and answer to any of you what the costs are of the circuit.  I don't need to do much of any of it.  But I do.  I have nothing to hide and never have.  The attack on my character was you guys accusing me of saying I need this money for my own personal gain (ie: running my own events.)


Also, I don't have anything that ships to the events.  They are run 100% independently from the circuit.  I contact them before the events and after and go over things about the circuit like rider classes etc. but I keep my nose out of their events and let them do their thing.


I dont have exact numbers but here are estimates...
Website/Hosting = $100
AM Circuit Banner = $200
Tshirts = $350
Trophies = $500
that is aprox $1150 for just those few things.  Now the $350 for tshirts is a starting number which is obvisouly an investment that helps pay for more things down the road.  To say no one cares about tshirts is dumb.  We have sold out each of the last two years all our tshirts before the final round.  In year one we did four different batches.


I have other things that I would like to do with the circuit that would cost money and time.  So $1500 or $2500 are goals that I would like to set to have money to do the things I would like.  I am not asking you to bash me or judge HOW I run the circuit... I am asking to help with ways/ideas to reach our goal of what we would like raised so we can have a better circuit with better prizes.  Maybe a cash prize for the year end winning Pro rider.


And while I am at it.  I don't think anyone who doesn't compete or hasn't competed (except one event in last who knows how many years) should have any comment what so ever as to what will improve them or make them worse.  You were at FWF1 and threw a tantrum and haven't competed since.  You used to compete years ago (so did a lot of us) and that makes you the expert on modern day contests and how they should be run and judged?


And Shayne, yes, that is an attack at me directly.  You said point blank that I am asking for money for my own personal reasons and not for the overall circuit.  You have been on my (and the circuits) case all year.  And even in person where you got in my face and accused me of things in front of my family and other riders.  You have caused problems at every event you have been to in the past two years... jomopro, dayton and york.  You are not part of the solution but the problem.  Less Shayne Ks at flatland events and less TJs bashing the events from behind his home computer the better for this sport.


Its a joke.  This is the reason that flatland isn't getting better but worse.  Examples are all over the place.  Bo Wade at Buffalo is another one.  And we as flatlanders wonder why we are not included in mainstream events like Xgames and dew tour?  because we are a bunch of whiny little babies. 


If you don't compete on a regular basis and are a rider who just posts videos then keep your mouth shut to those who are trying to organize events and series that you dont even go to.  If you don't like it, keep quiet and let those who have competed on the circuit or at events in 2011 comment on where theyd like to see something they are a part of progress.

[mewefan]

To stray the thread even further.  Rad Dad competed in intermediate and vet this year, and I don't blame him.  You can't get anything done in a one minute run.  If you can enter two classes w/ two one minute runs, then do it.  A minute and a half run would be better.  Steve, thanks for your work.  I can see it's frustrating.  Keep at it, man. 

[Shayne]

Ok, so the point of this topic is SOLEY to discuss ideas on how to raise $2500-3000 so that the AMFLAT circuit can continue in 2012?  Ok, bakesale, carwash, mow yards.


I'm just suggesting to trim the fat, so that $2500-$3000 doesn't have to be raised, maybe only $500-$700 is necessary.

Website/Hosting = $100 AM Circuit Banner = $200
Tshirts = $350
Trophies = $500

Now, cut out the t-shirts and cut out the banner.  $600 for trophies & website.


So, what are your goals & ideas that would require the additional fund raising?  You can effectively run the circuit with $600 to pay for the website and the year end trophies.

 

If you don't compete on a regular basis and are a rider who just posts videos then keep your mouth shut to those who are trying to organize events and series that you dont even go to.  If you don't like it, keep quiet and let those who have competed on the circuit or at events in 2011 comment on where theyd like to see something they are a part of progress.

Why don't you want input from riders who have been involved & competing in US flatland for 10+ years?  You have relatively little flatland experience and relatively little competition experience, so why wouldn't you want opinions from people who have been to countless SUCCESSFUL events?

[stvnlpsly]

How do you figure I have little Flatland experience and little contest experience?

[Shayne]

How do you figure I have little Flatland experinve and little contest experience?

Read my post.  Compared to other people, you have RELATIVELY little flatland experience and RELATIVELY little contest experience.  Keyword: relative: considered in relation or in proportion to something else

So, if I were comparing you & TJ, I would say you, Steve, have RELATIVELY little flatland experience & RELATIVELY little contest experience when compared to TJ. 

I'll just respond with this:  If I were someone in your shoes, I would be listening to the ideas and opinions of other riders who have been riding and competing in contests for 10+ years, especially riders who have moved UP the ranks, and riders who have actually witnessed some truly successful flatland events in the past.  Stop taking things as personal attacks. 

[Shayne]

Now, back to the original topic:  How can the N. American flat community fundraise $2500-$3000 to save the AmFlatCircuit in 2012?

[thestraw]

why don't you guys set up a conference call?  talking in real life is better than typing, just sayin

[sckain]

Hi Steve,

Sorry the series is pressed for cash. I'm surprised your budget for 5 events is only 3k or less.

Here is my mental diarrhea, enjoy.

My first thought is that you are in a spot some others have been in before. I'd try reaching out to Bob Morales or Ron Wilkerson to see if they found themselves in the same place. Ask them what they did to generate support money. You aren't alone.

Maybe another option is the sponsorship approach/ dynamic. You could try different sponsorship options per site and see how it works.

Like, If I were to have an event in Baltimore maybe reach out to Under Armor or Ford in Detroit. Take a moment to develop sponsorship packages. Maybe have different levels of sponsorship. Like $250 gets a potential sponsor two t-shirts, 2 VIP seats to the event, a certain amount of mentions by the announcer (advertising) a sign, a mention in the event zine/ program. $500 gets everything from the $250 package and also gets 2 more VIP seats, more advertising, pictures with the top 3 pro riders for that contest.

Maybe you could attach some of the contests/ locations to other rider bike shops. Like Neighborhood BMX, Groove Merchants Empire, Grove Street or 2by4 etc. They could bring out the local scene providing people to sell stuff too and the shop may be able to help find a location and/ or provide some of the prizes (e.g. shop logo t-shirts or swag may be less 'loss' for them to donate as a prize). It is another way to get more rider owned shops more involved with flatland.

The York contest was the only one I have had the chance to make it to and having it attached to the car show was a way to generate more foot traffic. If you have the opportunity to do something like that again maybe have a volunteer or two walk around with an "ask me about flatland" sign. Engage those that might not normally be there. Then have an accessible merchandise table in plain sight.

Selling t-shirts works if its making you money. You could also try having the event vend food. Every venue has different rules, so, you may not be able to see food at each event. The overhead of buying a few cases of side then selling them for a buck a piece may not seem like a lot, but, it could add up. If you have statistics on how many people have already come. I'm not sure what the formula would be, but, if you could project a profit it may be worth the initial investment.

This is totally reaching but look into government grants and programs (you never know). Maybe you could find a way to turn AMFlat into a 503c which could end you up to raising money for a good cause and the contests become an operational cost of the charity. That may keep you from having cash prizes though.

On another note:

Please don't get discouraged. I know you go unthanked, so, thank you.

I'm sure you will be criticized by folks. Back in the days of the AFA some loved it and some hated it. The same with 2 Hip, the same with BS and the X-Games etc. Judging will always "suck", the format will always "suck" blah, blah, blah ….

Those who aren't pleased with the series will cry harder and longer than those who are happy with the series. Those that are happy usually just accept the product and go about their day enjoying themselves.

Unfortunately I think for the most part your efforts will go on mostly thankless.

Sadly its the cancerous personalities that will troll you, assume those folks will never go away. Eff em'.

[2flat2furious]

You guys are ridiculous. Period. I have stated over and over and over that I do not run the events or even help with the events.  Can you read? Seriously. You take everything everyone says on here and distort it so far beyond what was initially intended.  I never said I needed to be at the events to help the organizers.  I said I feel it is important to be at the events for all the other stuff that I work on that doesn't included running the contest.  Also, if you can read what I said instead of jumping to ridiculous conclusions... I said that

I quoted exactly what you said. You said YOU being THERE is IMPORTANT. How? You don't go into any detail about it. You don't do anything at the events. You don't do anything for the circuit at the event. Yet you complain about costs. But we'll get to that in a minute.

I don't need to come on here and answer to any of you what the costs are of the circuit.  I don't need to do much of any of it.  But I do.  I have nothing to hide and never have.  The attack on my character was you guys accusing me of saying I need this money for my own personal gain (ie: running my own events.)

First off, it wasn't 'you guys'. Secondly, if you are complaining about money, and are asking people for ways to improve cashflow, its without a doubt important that people KNOW where the money is being spent so that we (the people who are giving you thoughtful suggestions as to how to save money) can help. You keep turning this into some sh*t about being attacked for some reason?

I dont have exact numbers but here are estimates...
Website/Hosting = $100
AM Circuit Banner = $200
Tshirts = $350
Trophies = $500
that is aprox $1150 for just those few things.  Now the $350 for tshirts is a starting number which is obvisouly an investment that helps pay for more things down the road.  To say no one cares about tshirts is dumb.  We have sold out each of the last two years all our tshirts before the final round.  In year one we did four different batches.

So in the costs of the T shirts, did you throw in the money you made from the sales? I mean that in the sense that like, it was a way to recoup the losses that went into trophies. So for arguments sake let's say for every 30 shirts sold it covers the costs of one trophy. Does that get factored in?

Sponsors should cover hosting and the banner. AMFLATCIRCUIT BROUGHT TO YOU BUY RAISIN CANES or whatever. that's how it works. I think you know that though. Putting your own cash into this isn't going to make it better. The only way that happens is if sponsors take interest. If they don't, it isn't necessarily a reflection on you, but that doesn't mean you should gripe about the costs of what professionals consider to be a bad investment. Obviously rebranding needs to occur, and maybe you aren't the person to do that. Again, that isn't a reflection on you, but if marketing isn't your thing (and it might not be for all I know), who can blame you for that?

I have other things that I would like to do with the circuit that would cost money and time.  So $1500 or $2500 are goals that I would like to set to have money to do the things I would like.  I am not asking you to bash me or judge HOW I run the circuit... I am asking to help with ways/ideas to reach our goal of what we would like raised so we can have a better circuit with better prizes.  Maybe a cash prize for the year end winning Pro rider.

Nobody is bashing you, yet. Where are you seeing people bash you? Get off this martyr complex and start addressing the points people are raising. The whole point of this thread is to question how you are running to circuit because you yourself are doubting whether or not there are better ways to do it. which is why you made a thread. Seriously, think man.

And while I am at it.  I don't think anyone who doesn't compete or hasn't competed (except one event in last who knows how many years) should have any comment what so ever as to what will improve them or make them worse.  You were at FWF1 and threw a tantrum and haven't competed since.  You used to compete years ago (so did a lot of us) and that makes you the expert on modern day contests and how they should be run and judged?

I have more contest experience than you do. I have been asked to judge some of the largest events in recent history in North America. Yes I do think it makes me an expert on judging. What credentials do you have? Some sh*tty f*cking comp with messed up judging up in NY that you yourself sat in on and judged? How'd that turn out for you? Who has taken issue with my judging EVER? The judging system you put forward before the events even happened raised eyebrows and caused problems and murmurs of problems down the line. When has there EVER been an issue with any call I've made at a judges table?

There hasn't been, which is why I know more about judging than you. Before you go and make yourself look like a complete idiot by calling out one of the few people in North America that people consider a trusted judge, don't bring this up again.

And Shayne, yes, that is an attack at me directly.  You said point blank that I am asking for money for my own personal reasons and not for the overall circuit.  You have been on my (and the circuits) case all year.  And even in person where you got in my face and accused me of things in front of my family and other riders.  You have caused problems at every event you have been to in the past two years... jomopro, dayton and york.  You are not part of the solution but the problem.  Less Shayne Ks at flatland events and less TJs bashing the events from behind his home computer the better for this sport.

Yes Shayne and I are the problem, not the guy currently going through financial growing pains because he wants to carry the cross alone and at the same time let EVERYONE know how heavy it is. Grow up. Our input is helpful, but you keep making it into some kind of an attack. It's petty. Really petty, and really unprofessional to turn everything that's said in here around into some kind of an attack on your character.

Its a joke.  This is the reason that flatland isn't getting better but worse.  Examples are all over the place.  Bo Wade at Buffalo is another one.  And we as flatlanders wonder why we are not included in mainstream events like Xgames and dew tour?  because we are a bunch of whiny little babies. 

Just because people don't like the way YOU run this circuit that has almost no bearing on the US flatland scene doesn't make them a joke, especially when they have opinions that are grounded in some kind of logic that doesn't require a detailed background in auto-fellation to follow. Bo was entirely justified in his criticisms of that contest. Your judging system was stupid and it just so happens there was a rider there with the balls to call someone like you out on it.

Flat isn't included because it's a niche sport that has never been able to find a market or audience in the mainstream. Turning around and blaming people like Bo, Shayne, or myself for having opinions that actually make sense to most people is just f*cking juvenile and I expect more out of someone who is doing everything in his power to make sure HE is the face of the big bad American flat circuit.

If you don't compete on a regular basis and are a rider who just posts videos then keep your mouth shut to those who are trying to organize events and series that you dont even go to.  If you don't like it, keep quiet and let those who have competed on the circuit or at events in 2011 comment on where theyd like to see something they are a part of progress.

Hey guess what buddy, some of the organizers and the people who show up to the events are the ones who hold you and your circuit in such low regard!

I don't know how the hell this degraded into you bashing everyone under the sun, but it's pretty clear to me why the circuit isn't doing well. You're unorganized, mentally and within the circuit. It's sad to see something that had so much potential be wasted. I'll save my respect for people who deserve it, like Alan and Jake, and the Toronto guys that put together Metro jam every year whether they have your benevolent "hyping" or not.