Author Topic: Problem with frame; KHE/Flatlandfuel.  (Read 17165 times)

Offline Jason

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2010, 04:07:39 PM »
When YOU purchase something from a manufacturer, YOU are entitled to said warranty. When YOU decide to purchase any product SECOND HAND then it is very clear the YOU are forfeiting the warranty that comes with the product.

I have never purchased a product second hand that I broke and expected to be compensated for. It's common frigging sense.....

I read the article, in it he said that he bought multiple frames within a short period of time. The way he speaks is as if he got a good paying job and money to spend. BUY A BRAND NEW FRAME WITH A BRAND NEW WARRANTY. QUIT CRYING OVER SPILLED MILK.....and support a US made product, it's where you live.  Just like everyone else should support your local retailer, it's helping the economy that you choose to live in.

.....and in the case of these broken Rips, he clearly stated that the first one was stolen and missing for 6 months.....warranty is 90 days from KHE.  The other was purchased second hand, technically that voids the warranty and becomes the option of the manufacturer to validate the claim. He shouldn't be mad at pat, he is just and arbitrary middle man.
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Offline Furball

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2010, 04:21:39 PM »
Can someone post up some better pics of the frames, wiped down from grease?
It would be interesting to see more digital evidence to see if this is a design error or simply the wrong product for the wrong person.

Anyone else cracked their rip in the same place?
Yeh josh briars in the uk did his in the same place if i remember .

Any idea if it was a rip 1 or rip 2?

The last time I saw him he was riding a white R.I.P. frame.
Remember, grammar is the difference between "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse", and "I helped my uncle jack off a horse".

I just started getting into flatland stuff about 3 days ago and suck so far, I blame my sh*tty bike and lack of practice.

Offline EZChris

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2010, 05:00:11 PM »
Can someone post up some better pics of the frames, wiped down from grease?
It would be interesting to see more digital evidence to see if this is a design error or simply the wrong product for the wrong person.

Anyone else cracked their rip in the same place?
Yeh josh briars in the uk did his in the same place if i remember .

Any idea if it was a rip 1 or rip 2?

The last time I saw him he was riding a white R.I.P. frame.


He broke the 1st version. they have him a v2 as replacement, which was nice i guess.
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Offline Sean Paul

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2010, 07:16:24 PM »
Hmmmm...... I miss Iriez' vids and posts, sorry about your frame bro. Thanks for postimg,this should be a hit though.


Ya me too.  He's still putting up vids on youtube, and they're really good.


Thanks guys! :) As for me, I dont miss my posts one bit. I've found that when things emotionally fuel me and I have a limited *solid* real life connection to them, it screws with my ability to 'filter' myself. The aspect of me that I displayed on this site IS a aspect of me, but its one thats very small in comparison to how I treat and respect people on a continual basis. While I really do think some people on here are twats, I honestly can't say that they arnt JUST LIKE ME - Struggling with how to act when virtuality overrides reality.

I posted a video last night from some recent stuff.

Long Beach Flatland Jam Oct 2010 / Various Clips


have to say, as an international customer to flatlandfuel, other than the high shipping charges, i am TOTALLY SATISFIED with the customer service support that patrick schoolen and company provides.
your problem -

1) the warrenty of most company covers first owner/ manufacturing defects over a limited time period; warrenties over the stated conditions are @ the companies discretion. neither the first st.martin frame from T.J. or the 2nd khe rip fullfils the conditions - you bought the diamond frame from T.J knowing how he feels about that frame (also documented on g-flat) and the way he rides; by having the first 2ND-HAND st. martin diamond frame warrentied for you is actually doing you a favour. 2nd hand is 2nd hand, one hour or the 'mint-ness' of the frame is beside the point...

2) they were right/have the right to say that during the duration of the first rip being missing/ stolen, you couldn't account for the possible abuse they might occur; as much as that isn't your fault and sucks to hear...

3) 3 frame cracking @ similar spots (if i'm not mistaken, i read on g-flat that the 2nd-hand diamond from T.J also cracked @ the T.T to S.T juncture), maybe it's just you or the types of tricks that you are learning that causes them to crack that way? i know/ heard of riders cracking their frames in rapid succession (new frame every other month) from learning whoppers and general progressive riding.

4) khe's distro made you an offer of below wholesale price on a frame which you wanted (a-damm<wasn't stated if its was the pro or the standard version>) in an attempt 'to make peace' but it appears that you rejected them, so how is it their fault?


Few notes: I have a v2 RIP (v1's are black, v2's are bone white). Yes, its all greasy because I had just changed my BB. I dont really care how dirty it is, I sent them a high res version of the picture and they should have no problems seeing the cracks run parallel along the weld. I also sent thomas @ khe, FF other pictures i originally took aswell....so they had more to go off of. I just did that one so you all could see I *really do* have two frames cracked in the same exact spot.

Yes, others cracked here aswell. Plenty of proof from riders on this one, and Jesse Puente said he's seen almost all of those frames crack and go away. I know he has to support his company so I dont want to quote him too much or share his opinions. He DOES say that HIS frames never crack...but I've heard of of equilibrium's cracking.

1) First you are making assumptions on what I know. The conversations between me and TJ on that frame mentioned nothing of his opinion other than he just didnt like it. Honestly couldn't care less because me and tj have completely different riding styles and size/weight specs. I acutally liked the frame and thought it helped me progress alot at the time.

As for the warranty? You do realize most situations are discretion situations right? At the time I was a customer that had purchased a fair amount of stuff from FF (where tj got the frame) and it was pat's *discretion* to submit for the warranty. The frame was clearly defected as st martin specifically rebutted that portion of the frame on their 2010 model. It had broken in less than 60 days from buying it. Yes, i know resale voids warranties. This is NOT about technicality entirely but about ALL the facts surrounding the issues and making ethical decisions based on those facts. Pat got the frame warrantied no problem and im sure he was reimbursed like he is from most manufactuers. No one was hurt...st martin had a faulty product, the rider got taken care of and the retailer didnt out of pocket himself. Tell me how that is wrong? As for the situation...pat refused to help me at first. It took about 30+ emails back and forth before he finally agreed to do it as a exception....something he really SHOULD have done from the start considering this market, the problems, and the limited amount of riders. I acknowledge that pat has SOME customer service, he just really seems narrow minded and obviously confused on the nature of customer service at times.

2) you are correct on this one, as unfortunate as it is for me. Again...its about using the facts surrounding the situation to make ethical decisions, not just seeing one thing and going 'black and white'.

3) I REALLY HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY "MAYBE ITS JUST THE WAY YOU RIDE"

I RIDE FLATLAND DUDE. DONT YOU GET IT? It doesnt matter what tricks you do, what STYLE you ride!!! I RIDE FLATLAND, ON A FLATLAND FRAME. YES......my 'style' will cause stress on different parts than other people's 'styles' ...how on *earth* should that affect the legality of a warranty, or *THE RESPONSIBILITY OF A MANUFACTURER TO ACCOUNT FOR STRENGTH*. People's 'riding style' is what breaks frames differently to allow the manufacturers to account for weaknesses and *TO FIX THEM*. Im sorry but we are doing them a FAVOR! Ugh!!! How many years do you need to engineer and manufacturer a product before you just f*ckING GET IT? Frames dont crack in the middle of the tube unless you are using too thin tubing...frames crack on *stress spots*...f*cking rebutt them for crying out loud or use better metal and not taiwanese sh*t.

Pat tried to say the same bullsh*t to me. Its just f*cking ridiculous, and its honestly that kind of line of thought that is just another piece of the puzzle that clearly shows he does NOT care for the customer as much as he should. Yea, like its MY fault im trying to progress myself and the sport. Guess i'll just be f*cked because my 'style' is different right? lol....christ.

4) I believe the topic calls out KHE/FF ....not....QBP. Tim was efficient in his job and even spoke to the owner of KHE direct for me. I cannot blame him for anything other than to be irked that he threw it in my face that he also 'agreed' with KHE. Sorry, but all these people care too much about their numbers and not enough about the concept of continued business and their customers. For what money he would have lost on my warranty (khe would have reimbursed him/ff anyways...) he would have easily made up in future purchases. I aint planning to quit anytime soon...I ride every day.

Sean not being here made this place a bit more peaceful so i don't see how you can miss him.


I bought a khe hub off FF and it had play in it, its a factory defect but there isn't much you can do about it cause there is no warranty on hubs.. patrick did offer to purchase the same hub for half price despite the fact he is not obligated to do it.

ye the thing with the frame sucks, but its more of KHE's problem that they don't care much about parts as soon as they leave their doorway rather than Patrick's customer service.


Who wants peaceful on the internet? Thats boring. Besides, your still a douche in my book :)

It WOULD be 'just' KHE's problem, had pat not been aware of precisely what had just occoured (2 frames cracked in the same spot ...my st martins) and gave me his best recommendation on which manufacturer to purchase based on MY facts. I did not ask who had 'the best black and white' policy, i asked who was GOING TO TAKE CARE OF ME. Hence his part about 'case by case' basis and how much he thought of them.

Guys...the facts are obvious. KHE has *years* of horrible reputation in regards to customer service and warranties...I just did not know it at the time. I thought pat a knowledgeable and ethical person back then, so i took his advice strongly. Now that I ride with more people and hear more stuff, I've gotten a better gist of the situation. Pat makes a high margin on their product because they use cheap taiwanese manufacturing and high retail prices. This means lower 'cost' and higher margins for pat. He made his decision based on his current stock and/or marginal rates....because its obvious he sure as hell knows that KHE is a f*ckall on warranties. Really...who can deny that? This had nothing to do with customer service and everything to do with pat's business plan.....which is unfortunately very poor. If you isolate a customer and give bad advice, how on earth can you expect to have continued business?

In california that is illegal in accordance to our consumer laws. You can NEVER force a customer to be monopolized by a single retailer.

Seriously Sean, are you for real? You had a binding contract with Pat, not with QBP or KHE! It's Pat's responsibility to handle the warranty claim for you (he's obliged by law). Nothing illegal here! I highly doubt that this is illegal anywhere in the world. In fact, it's common practice.

You cannot go to any bike shop and say "Hi, I recently bought this frame. Well, I bought it from another bike shop, but now it's broken" and expect them to handle the warranty claim for you just because they do business with the same distributor. If they do it for you, consider yourself a lucky bastard. But they don't have to because they're not obliged by law.

That's how these things work. And if you don't understand that, or if you don't want to understand that, well, I'm not sorry to say that, but that's your problem!

What makes this even more ridiculous is the fact that you chose a frame because of a company's warranty policy rather than looking for quality!

Quote
I specifically purchased your brand/frame through the advice of patrick from FF based on *warranty support*


http://iriez.blogspot.com/2010/11/proof-that-kheflatlandfuel-is-screwing.html

Hate or like, I dont care. Im going off FACTS (all documented in the above blog).


"Hate it or like it, I don't care"? Typical statement of someone who doesn't want to hear or see the truth!

YOU are twisting the facts!
[/quote]

No, you are twisting the situation. I was talking about how clear it is that the company uses FF as their basis of everything. Pat did NOT give a appropriate effort AT ALL to handle my situation. Infact, he did what he always does....half asses it and then does a little more if people start to yell at him.

And YES, I *should* have another route of options if its clear that my relationship with the retailer is strained and or unethical.

You are correct about the obligation of FF in regards to handling the warranty, and no, nothing about that is illegal. My point was just that consumer laws allow for customers to have *multiple options* ...NOT...a single obligation. You should NEVER force a customer to deal with one person and one person only and say 'well eff you' if you have problems with that. Thats not about law, thats about customer service and ethics.

And I was saying 'hate it or like it' based on my situation, my blog and whats in it. It has nothing to do with 'the truth' other than what you perceive. This is just a way to spread information so that others can make educated decisions from consumers instead of taking the advice from a unethical retailer. It WAS bad advice considering the facts.

Its bad to purchase based on a warranty? Im sorry, but if you had the problems I (and many other riders) have...then you wouldn't have said that. HOW MANY TIMES am i going to get buttf*cked on a warranty and pay DOUBLE for something I should have only paid ONCE for? No, i ABSOLUTELY will buy 'based on warranty'....and you are entitled to your opinion but talking down on someone for making a responsible decision that affects their fiscal livelyhood is NOT a irresponsible or uneducated decision.

Think again :)

Mare:

I blame patrick because patrick advised me based on my situation. My situation has repeated itself and I am once again in troubled waters. He advised me to purchse KHE based on how they handle their warranties and its obvious that they do not handle the warranties in the way that I *specifically asked patrick to provide me*. I did not say "hey patrick, who has the crappiest black and white warranty?" ...no...i asked him "Who is going to *take care of me* when my frame cracks based on a defect" ?

its not about black and white. Most companies do not live by policy, they live by situations. All situations can call for exceptions, and mine was obviously a defective situation even if I didnt fall under the '90 day warranty' (which is bullsh*t anyways...90 days? bah!).

Jason: I DID PURCHASE THE EFFING THING NEW.

God you guys dont read. I purchased a SECOND one secondhand because the KHE doesnt make it anymore. I WOULD have purchased ANOTHER one 'new' if it was availible, but it was NOT! I had not cracked anythign at the time, my bike got stolen! It was my favorite ride and i wanted to replace it the way it WAS.

EZCHRIS: I never owned a v1 and never will. Oh, and I love you too buddy :)
PS - i dont hate you for hating me, because i hate me too :) Besides, i was a little twat the first 6 months on here and i deserved to be hated. The difference is i actually realized it and shaped up. You can keep on hatin me...its all good. I'll keep liking you despite your hate :)

Offline EZChris

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2010, 07:37:30 PM »
Oh I dont hate anyone, oh no no no I could never base such a strong emotion on a few lines of text on a forum.

but more to the point, i havnt a clue whats going on here.
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Offline khe killah

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2010, 11:10:54 PM »
The khe rip 1 & 2 where not the same!! The seatstays, chainstays and dropouts were modified to allow smaller sprockets and save weight in the rip 2... Maybe this made it weaker in that area?

Check the spec in this old thread;

http://www.global-flat.org/smf/index.php?topic=14990

Offline 2flat2furious

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2010, 11:14:22 PM »
I believe the forum you are looking for is www.pedalbmx.com Iriez.

Offline Sean Paul

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2010, 12:48:51 AM »
I believe the forum you are looking for is www.pedalbmx.com Iriez.


I dont know what hidden context you are implying.....but I DID see this as one of the first threads there:

http://www.pedalbmx.com/Posts/View/243406/10-reasons-tj-perry-is-trash

Thx :)

Offline Wouter van der Linde

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2010, 12:51:08 AM »
I believe the forum you are looking for is www.pedalbmx.com Iriez.


I dont know what hidden context you are implying.....but I DID see this as one of the first threads there:

http://www.pedalbmx.com/Posts/View/243406/10-reasons-tj-perry-is-trash

Thx :)


wtf is this bullsh*t? who wrote that?

Offline ukflat

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2010, 02:46:07 AM »
yea mine broke on the top / bottom weld at the top tube. top tube was also buckled / rippled. few cracks round seat tube too. it was a rip 1.

Offline K.Wong

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2010, 06:06:01 AM »
I believe the forum you are looking for is www.pedalbmx.com Iriez.


I dont know what hidden context you are implying.....but I DID see this as one of the first threads there:

http://www.pedalbmx.com/Posts/View/243406/10-reasons-tj-perry-is-trash

Thx :)


wtf is this bullsh*t? who wrote that?


wtf is this bullsh*t? who wrote that? +1

don't really like t.j perry's online personality, but until t_roll mans-up and reveal who he/ she is, why and how he/ she formed such an opnion and feels the need to publicly slander another flatlander, he/ she is no better than t.j perry by my book.


Offline enter1

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2010, 07:32:57 AM »
Flatland has changed and mimics alot of street stuff with hops into stuff, tricks on the pedals, whopper tricks etc..  I feel that puts more stress on a frame than tricks where one wheel is planted on the ground most of the time.  If you know someone is hard on frames and doing street inspired tricks, then get a small street frame or research some stronger flatland ones.  My riding has changed and I realized I need a stronger frame because of the stuff I like to do.  Especially bailing alot learning the newer stuff.  The bike is going to eventually break.  Now if I was only doing rolling tricks or other non impact tricks then I would sweat it if they broke.

Just my 2 cents.

SFV_BOY

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Re: Proof that KHE/Flatlandfuel is screwing their customers
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2010, 10:50:49 AM »
flatlandfuels been good GREAT to me. Never had 1 problem

Offline whitty

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Re: Problem with frame; KHE/Flatlandfuel.
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2010, 02:50:51 AM »
Flatland is a sport characterized by doing wild and crazy tricks that put awkward and unpredictable stresses on components. To compound that fact, everything about the rider's style and physique has to do with those stresses, as well. In some cases, you can say that something shouldn't break: pedals are basically bulletproof. Even the crappiest pedal will require tons of effort to break good and proper. Stems, if appropriately designed, should also never really break unless they're improperly installed, although that's not universally true.

Frames, however, are at the most fragile end of this spectrum. On the one hand, they're expected to handle the most heinous stresses along the most awkward lines. Every joint has any number of moments about any number of axes, and any number of thrusts at the same time. You can't even reasonably run an FEA on a frame design to see if it'll hold up to trickX, the design is functionally guesswork building on previous tested guesswork.

On the one hand, it's understandable that you might feel pissed when your new $400 frame snaps on you. But then on the other hand, put yourself in the shoes of the company who made the frame: How are they to know that you've treated it with respect? What is their guarantee that you won't keep breaking the frame where others don't? There's such a thing as a bad design that isn't fit for use, but there's also such a thing as a design geared for lightness and a smaller, less agressive rider.

I just had a freecoaster die on me. On the one hand, it shouldn't have: my Taska Ufree now has a shell that's totally smooth and slips at even the slightest pedal. But on the other hand, I'm a 230lb 6"1' guy who uses his bike, in addition to flatland, to get around the city on a regular basis. If there's any case in which that particular hub would fail in that particular way, I'm it. The lesson? Don't buy the same hub again. I have no reason to expect that the same design should be able to handle the same stress for longer if I buy a new one. And it sucks that forecasters don't come with warranties, but I clearly shouldn't be getting the same one anyway.

As far as warranties go, you have to have some perspective. Definitely the company should honor the warranty and err on your side in doing so. But you can't reasonably expect them to spend hundreds of dollars on something they can only believe is your abuse of the product. And when it comes to bike parts, you have a responsibility to take into account your own weight and riding style when picking between lightness and strength. To this point, I had a KHE tire STB on me a few months back. I realized that it was probably a manufacturing defect on the part of KHE that I'd noticed but not addressed before I installed and used the tire. I explained to them my logic and my evidence that it was a defective tire and not a simple pop from glass in the road (EVERYWHERE in Dresden), assuming they'd believe it was the glass. They happily saw my point and replaced the tire no problem, even though they had only my admittedly unsure word to go on.

As far as FlatlandFuel goes, you shouldn't have expected anything at all. You didn't even start owning either frame yourself, ao right from the off it was only the previous owner's word as to treatment of the frame. And then the things were both beaten up pretty bad. Maybe no more than the normal line of fire, but it's hardly as though it broke after 5 tricks.

And still, when I emailed Pat about my own hub, the response was that freecoasters don't have warranties. When I asked about replacing the hub with one of the on-sale FederalV2s, but 36H with a 9T driver, FF went out of their way to replace the driver of a 11t product with with a 9t hub's driver despite having no obligation to do so. I can't ask for much more than that, and it's totally consistent with every other interaction I've ever had with FF. I'm proud to throw every order's FF stickers on all my stuff!

Offline K.Wong

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Re: Problem with frame; KHE/Flatlandfuel.
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2010, 07:05:47 AM »
huh?, thought this thread was locked by karl? what's up???

@ whitty: better read this if you haven't -
http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?topic=42407.0

and i think it's better to let this matter rest as it's being "settled" (if it's possible at all) behind the scene.