Global-flat.com Board
English => General Flatland Forum => Topic started by: Flo Sailer on December 11, 2007, 02:41:17 PM
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hi to everybody and especially to the riders out there who try to make their living out of flatland.
i quit my sponsorship with khe last friday. first i want to say that khe did good stuff and iīm thankfull to their part support for the last 3 years!
so leaving my bike sponsor is just bad for me but i did it because i think there must be new standards in sponsoring!
pro or world team riders should get monthly + travel money and flow team riders parts.
i want to make clear that i donīt want to "fight" for myself for me it was enough to get just parts but leaving khe is to set an example itīs a protest! i want to show that the team riders are the backbone of a company and that pro riders should get more respect for their work because team riders are also assistants!
itīs clear that small companies with just 5-6 parts on the market and 2 assistants could not pay monex to their team but bigger "player" in that game could and should! and khe is deffinitly a bigger "player" in that bussines.
yes, flatland is a small market but if a company uses names of riders for a "world team" this riders should be paid for it!
itīs clear that lot of people will hate on me now because i did this step and said my opinion but i did not let me shut up from people who be afraid of changing the status quo! and yes, i explained my opinion to khe headquater very often but they give no statement and donīt wanted to change something so i decided to bring this in the public with the hope to change something!
khe and some other companies could deffinitly pay some money to their elite flat riders! didnīt street world team or pro riders also get money?
this thread is not to hate on khe or any company itīs to diskuss about that issue and change something in the mind of the companies!
flatland pro riders should be allowed to make their living out of their "sport" and the bike companies wich could, should help them!
so i attached a poll at this thread!
please vote and disskus espacially rider who be related to this!
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I voted "no" because I don't think you can say any company *should* do anything in this situation. If pro riders are willing to ride for a company for no money, then those companies aren't going to pay. Flo, if you quitting KHE impacts their sales to the point where they feel that they were doing better with you than without you, then I'm sure you'll start seeing some checks. If not, then you won't.
Alex J. and Matthias obviously agree with you since they left KHE and started A Bad Thing on their own.
I guess to summarize my thoughts without writing a novel, I don't think flat companies should pay riders just for the sake of paying them. That said, I think you did the right thing in leaving KHE. If they're not giving you what you think you deserve, then you gotta cut the cord.
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I totally agree with you Flo, thats maybe a big step you did in terms of showing other riders what is right. Take the "pro" riders out of Khe, and its my opinion that product wouldnt sell, so the rider is worth something, in terms of marketing, branding, whatever. However, the pro rider should work to promote the company if being paid, the best example i can think of is Terry Adams, he is a "professional" in every sense of the word.
Imagine Khe with no Bram, Justin, Waldemar, Jesse....
more power to you Flo
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thanks effraim for your comment. this gives me motivation and shows me that iīm not "crazy" and i did not stand alone with my point of view.
riders wake up!
i donīt want to bash companies just bringing something in a new and better direction!
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i can`t even think to be sponsored by any brand but i think you made big step. the time will tell if it`s good or bad one. but you know how they sey : no risk no fun -_-
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im not so sure... if a company in such a small sport is prepared to give you free parts and support, i think it's a bit of an insult to throw it back at them because you want even more. i think you should consider yourself lucky to get support. i dont know you so this is just a generalisation, but unless KHE needs you more than you need them and can't find anyone to replace you , and of course unless you're creating revenue for them. you're in no position to demand money. thats just my opinion, good luck whatever you do :beer:
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@revan23
i have to accent here again that i do this not for myself because for me it was ok to get parts (i write that below) i did this step to bring a discussion up about that and i do this with the hope to change something in generell.
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In my opinion the industry needs a standard.
Pro / World Team = Salary and of course parts.
Co / Flow Team = Parts and possible entry fee's.
*Of course if any company can help with travel thats great for the rider BUT the company needs the rider there to promote so thats an equal trade off.
With the above stated we must always keep in mind that the rider must do just as much for the company. The rider must be pro active in media and ways to promote the brand.
Its ok if a company can only sponsor one Pro rider , Hell its ok if they can't sponsor any. Just be fair and honest to the reality of the situation.
Good luck Flo. I applaud your courage.
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You did the right thing. You offer them a service and that is riding your bike and being the best that you can be and doing so with their products. People buy their products because you and others are using those products so you should be compensated and I dont think giving you some parts a year at cost would justify it. I am sure you appreciate the free stuff but if they expect you do be your best which allows you to promote them in the best way then paying you would be the right answer. Pro Athletes dont have side day job to play a sport, they are paid so they can make a living so they can concentrate on their sport. No one should think you are on an ego trip for doing what you did. If you work expect to get paid because in the end you have to make ends meet.
Matt
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Flo, I agree with what you've said and done, but the sad reality is, our sport does not make enough money yet, to pay large sums of money. I dont know anything about KHE's financials, but I think maybe they can pay you a bit more, but if you want more money, unfortunately you need to look outside of flatland for sponsorships, like clothing companies, and drink companies, etc, etc.
My suggestion would be to try these companies outside of flatland, like red bull, gatorade, coka cola, nike, vans, loteks, adidas, gap, etc, etc. Flatlanders will never earn as much as mainstream sports pro's, but we have the best sport in the world and not everyone sees it this way. So I voted yes, but I know they cannot pay you as much as bigger companies. Extreme/alternative sports will never equal mainstream sports in salary/wages.
Good luck Flo, your riding ability is inspirational to amateurs like me, ride on and enjoy flatland forever. :beer: :mellow:
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companies are there to make money end of there concern for riders shouldnt exist beyond there concern for making products and money thats BUISNESS . The only reason a company flows a rider is so they can use them in adverts to sell there products beyond that a company will make a calculated judgement of a riders worth ,so if your gonna be the reason the company makes 500k in sales that year due to advertising then yeah you will recieve alot more but in reality this sport is small and flo KHE obviously considered what they were doing for you to be the appropriate investment for your worth to them .
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ok i see i have it to say again:
i did this not for myself. i was pleased with my deal and happy to get stuff. i do this because there is no differnce between world team and flow team. and i think relativly bigger companies like khe should give better deals to there world team riders including salary (even its just a little but it shows the respect and even little money helps the riders) and travel expenses.
there should be a transparent system where all riders now what they can get and what others get...so its also a motivation for the riders to work harder for their sponsor.
the most important is: i want to see that khe and others see teamriders like normal workers means they get money for their work.
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hey fo whats is your name?
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? mean me..like my name here ..i dont use pseudonyms....
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I personally believe that only competing pros should be sponsered unless they are getting constant video parts and can provide a good outlet for exposing the company. I think the company should reciprocate and help the rider get to as many contests worldwide as they possibly can. It's absolutely ridiculous to just halfass the sponser aspect and just throw a rider a frame and tell them to rep you when you can't even provide the means for them to do it.
It's a symbiotic relationship that needs BOTH parties helping each other to work.
edit: another thing I'd like to add is that I seriously believe that people simply getting flow hurts the companies more than helps. If you arn't at the top of your game, you shouldn't be employed by the company. Because that's what you are when you're sponsered. Its a job title and you are entitled to the benefits of the company and all, but the bottom line is you are WORKING for them, and simply riding your bike isn't working, you gotta rep the name and label too.
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I personally believe that only competing pros should be sponsered unless they are getting constant video parts and can provide a good outlet for exposing the company. I think the company should reciprocate and help the rider get to as many contests worldwide as they possibly can. It's absolutely ridiculous to just halfass the sponser aspect and just throw a rider a frame and tell them to rep you when you can't even provide the means for them to do it.
It's a symbiotic relationship that needs BOTH parties helping each other to work.
I agree with TJ 100% on this one. Flo is only interested in making things change for the better for flatland and it's Pro level riders. I applaud you for that bro.
Peace,
Erik
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real name
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I agree with you flo. You're spending a lot of time representing flatland, and your sponsors should compensate you for that time. I think a sponsor should make their riders as comfy as they can. Keep the bikes running smooth and paying for entry fees. That's expected from a sponsorship.
Salary and travel expenses is big money tho. You should create a contract proposal or something. Tell companies what you're doing and what you need to do that. If you want your rent paid so you don't have to work, I don't see why that can't happen.
Do demos, update photos, finish well in contests, make it a job to represent.
Terry could write a book about it.
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I totally agree. Whats the point of being sponsored by a relatively large company if there are little or no benefits. They'd still want their riders to say "Hey, look at me, I ride for so and so", but without the proper motivation/compinsation, theres really no point to it at all. That and with KHE's outstanding customer service (*Massive amount of sarcasm*), I'm not surprised you didnt get a response back from any of them.
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I wish you all the best with your decision, never an easy thing to take a stand alone. It must be very difficult if one is to survive a long haul in such a market, where the days of just riding and the rest will follow doesn't exist anymore. You really have to be business savvy in more ways than one and think as entrepreneur, and in this field your body itself is the enabler. Its such a volatile business on so many levels.
As a pro rider and for anyone in the sports and entertainment industry how important has it become to explore avenues related or non-related resources, sponsorship and endorsements for additional sustainability since it can not be within one foundation/company. Some "players" go as far as getting outside companies to support other needs and sometimes the public can not understand why they chose such and such, when Johnny Rocket actually gave in-kind for getting the airline tickets..etc..(one had to be a diplomat not viewed as sell out at that point).
The "Big Players" being the capital and spokesmen or the representing body may have to consider to advocate for such needs. Being that one is also an "assistant", I just feel a Rider has to work very hard and be knowledgeable beyond his actual riding capacity and this may seem overload especially if one is an up and coming young buck, hopefully with or without positive parent support/grounding, they learn how to handle marketing, branding, PR, design development and communications. In the "Big Market", players get agents or managers, and still have the empowerment and the know how for calling the shots. One has to be one hell'av rider with great public image and support for such control.
In the end everyone is looking out for No.1. These days there are so many organizations and social entrepreneurs created for better alternatives due to lack of support, and all these models have had to adept to corp style of management to survive. All of the actions sports industry has been founded by riders for riders, and have tired to create what is best, be it good or bad, in the end profits are the bottom line, above all this, the customer comes first. You have to be a hybrid or blend in order to fight and still retain truth and integrity with keeping fundamental principles of sound sustainability... I am sure KHE is reading this, maybe they will fork though their policies and standards ...Good Luck, I hope you what ever the company, all find a middle ground.
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OH yes...good to have a lawyer before one signs anything or a contract that is fexible and negotiable. So that way you know where you stand and what your role is in the company.
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to steward: yes this is my real name.
to all: thanks for your support and good comments. this is what i wanted a discussion about that point and i think there are people from khe reading this and from other companies and they are welcome to explain there point of view!
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I don't know how it is in the flatland business, but from a purely business point of view it makes some sense for the companies to pay/give as little as they can get away with - but that will only work in the short term - in the long term the best deal is the one that both sides are more or less happy with, and if you (Flo) were not happy with the deal, I'd agree it was best to move on.
I think the difficulty will be that it all comes down to opinion on how much a rider is bringing to the company, and the 2 sides may see things a lot differently. There is only so much money floating round in flatland, and there is only so much of it that will ever go to riders.
I think if I was looking to get a good sponsorship deal I would be pumping the self promotion on the net as much as I could. Have a website, new videos and photos once a week, new content all the time, spend an hour a day on it, build a base. Easy to give the company accountants some solid numbers that way, easy for them to pay you $X in place of paying $3X for the same exposure in adverts.
Then I thought some more, and got out of my depth.... wouldn't sponsorship payments and products be tax deductible? At least to some %? That would colour things even more to the companies being able to make better payments.
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Speaking from experience i dont think any sponsor owes any rider anything.
Now im not a big name pro, nor do i try to make a living off riding, but i still get flow from one of the sickest companies in the business.
I believe in the companies i ride for and am honoured to be part of such a tight-knit team. It motivates me.
I will always owe my sponsors, they gave the kid from N.Ireland a chance to get out there and make something of myself.
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Dance with who brings you, you have to regret this at some point or you knew it was coming and shot first , or this is made up because almost no one knows who you are and you aint saying
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keep in mind that KHE dont have a 40 storey skyscraper and executives rolling round in aston martins, i agree with pete, they dont owe flatland anything, they provide flatland specific bikes and parts, and if someone is lucky enough to get picked up by them or any similar company and given a bike, parts, whatever then that's more than most of us get. they are under no obligation to even give out so much as a free sticker to anyone
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yes thats cool! to support a smaller company is cool and both sides are lucky to have eachother. and for that part sponsoring is cool and more is not possible,
but if there is a possibility companys should parttake riders in their success.
first there was the rider than there was a company!!
and again because i read several times "if you where not pleased about your sposnoring" etc...: i was pleased with my deal at khe! i did this step to change something in generell thats why i pass on my sponsoring and quit it!
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keep in mind that KHE dont have a 40 storey skyscraper and executives rolling round in aston martins, i agree with pete, they dont owe flatland anything, they provide flatland specific bikes and parts, and if someone is lucky enough to get picked up by them or any similar company and given a bike, parts, whatever then that's more than most of us get. they are under no obligation to even give out so much as a free sticker to anyone
just stfu...its not like you actually ride or progress to have a valid opinion anyways...go learn some original tricks...find out how hard it is to commit your whole life to something and find out it isnt really worth anything at all..not that you can put a price on talent anyways...f*cking whatever....hardcore flatlanders will continue learning and creating new hardcore tricks that those gay normal people will never understand and in someways thats a good thing
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keep in mind that KHE dont have a 40 storey skyscraper and executives rolling round in aston martins, i agree with pete, they dont owe flatland anything, they provide flatland specific bikes and parts, and if someone is lucky enough to get picked up by them or any similar company and given a bike, parts, whatever then that's more than most of us get. they are under no obligation to even give out so much as a free sticker to anyone
just stfu...its not like you actually ride or progress to have a valid opinion anyways...go learn some original tricks...find out how hard it is to commit your whole life to something and find out it isnt really worth anything at all..not that you can put a price on talent anyways...****ing whatever....hardcore flatlanders will continue learning and creating new hardcore tricks that those yag normal people will never understand and in someways thats a good thing
Man, to be fair, if you ride your whole life expecting to get something for your efforts other than self-satisfaction, i think you are in the wrong game.
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Man, to be fair, if you ride your whole life expecting to get something for your efforts other than self-satisfaction, i think you are in the wrong game.
I think what he meant to say, was that it sucks for individuals to devote themselves to something they love, and to push it as hard as they can, and while in some aspects of life that will net you a comfortable living, for flatlanders it leads to poverty and holding down a 2nd job aside from riding.
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keep in mind that KHE dont have a 40 storey skyscraper and executives rolling round in aston martins, i agree with pete, they dont owe flatland anything, they provide flatland specific bikes and parts, and if someone is lucky enough to get picked up by them or any similar company and given a bike, parts, whatever then that's more than most of us get. they are under no obligation to even give out so much as a free sticker to anyone
just stfu...its not like you actually ride or progress to have a valid opinion anyways...go learn some original tricks...find out how hard it is to commit your whole life to something and find out it isnt really worth anything at all..not that you can put a price on talent anyways...****ing whatever....hardcore flatlanders will continue learning and creating new hardcore tricks that those yag normal people will never understand and in someways thats a good thing
Man, to be fair, if you ride your whole life expecting to get something for your efforts other than self-satisfaction, i think you are in the wrong game.
thats not what i mean...what i mean is....i spend my entire day thinking about riding if i cant be riding flatland...ya for sure flatland is really what i love to do and if i had a choice...even though i dont...... i spend as much time as i can riding and progressing...you know how the apes got out of the trees started using two legs to walk...from there to here...whats the next step...**** ya its flatland..........
who said anything about expecting anything from flatland...its just dissappointing that i see yag ****ing actors and musicians and other celebrities and **** with no talent whatsoever living the good life and people with genuine and unique talent dont get **** at all
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Man, to be fair, if you ride your whole life expecting to get something for your efforts other than self-satisfaction, i think you are in the wrong game.
I think what he meant to say, was that it sucks for individuals to devote themselves to something they love, and to push it as hard as they can, and while in some aspects of life that will net you a comfortable living, for flatlanders it leads to poverty and holding down a 2nd job aside from riding.
Thats cool. Fair point.
Anyway, i said my piece, im going before this turns ugly. :wacko:
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Man, to be fair, if you ride your whole life expecting to get something for your efforts other than self-satisfaction, i think you are in the wrong game.
I think what he meant to say, was that it sucks for individuals to devote themselves to something they love, and to push it as hard as they can, and while in some aspects of life that will net you a comfortable living, for flatlanders it leads to poverty and holding down a 2nd job aside from riding.
Thats cool. Fair point.
Anyway, i said my piece, im going before this turns ugly. :wacko:
sorry, but it really is the saddest thing in the world to think about it....that some stupid singer gets to live in luxuries....give a really hardcore and dedicated flatlander those resources...and how much do they really need to explore their creativity and progress? a yacht? a mansion? something to showoff???....
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To me the bottom line is this. Flatland is a sport just like baseball, football, basketball, etc. Just because it is not as mainstream as those, it doesn't mean the riders are any less dedicated, or stressed. They travel to comps, and need to buy tickets, food, and such. If a Pro Football player makes $3,000,000 dollars a year why can't a Pro Flatlander make $30,000 a year? There is a huge gap between the two sports, but so is the pay. Teams (companies) need to step up and do something for the riders. Is it not the awesome riders who make others want to ride? Then when that happens, and people buy the products, and the companies make money, shouldn't it be paid forward to the people (riders) who really made them the money in the first place?
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off topic a bit.
It would be great to see more riders making a living off flatlanding. I feel like so many good riders have put in work for so long without reward, they end up saying f##k it and quit.
self-satisfaction only goes so far for some riders.
I hope this discussion opens some eyes. Anyway, I'm going riding.
Good luck Flo.
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To me the bottom line is this. Flatland is a sport just like baseball, football, basketball, etc. Just because it is not as mainstream as those, it doesn't mean the riders are any less dedicated, or stressed. They travel to comps, and need to buy tickets, food, and such. If a Pro Football player makes $3,000,000 dollars a year why can't a Pro Flatlander make $30,000 a year?
In business terms, why would a company pay a rider $30,000 a year?
They would do it because they would gain more than $30,000 a year in exposure and sales just because they sponsor the rider.
If they pay the rider $30,000, then right away the company needs to make/save $30,000 extra in sales/exposure to just break even on the deal. Of course it's more complicated with overheads and taxes in the mix, but that is the bottom line.
Now for a few riders, just riding their bikes, doing video sections and contests might be enough to earn that money. But for the majority of riders, even "pros" it would not be. As I outlined before there may be ways for riders to increase what they are worth to a company, but that depends on them.
I'm still not too clear on where Flo is looking to go with this.
I think it's clear that the few top pros should be on salary and expenses.
I think it's clear too that not every rider that enters a pro class is going to be able to get that deal too. As the sport grows as a business then more riders maybe can get towards that, but there will always be a limit.
If the best deal any company offers you is parts and travel expenses, does that mean they are ripping you off, or does that mean that supply and demand has cut in? I guess it will be different in each case.
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Oke People What the F*ck. The first thing i did when i read this post was laughing my ass off. I mean come on this cant be serious.
Why the hell would khe pay YOU Flo Sailer a month salary why the hell is he sponserd in the first place.
When was the last time you didn't end last in the competitions.
The sponsors need to wake up? You need to wake up. Take a look at you level of riding man.
I have been riding my ass of to get a sponsor. And then you are going to complain.
You off all sponsored flatland riders is the last one who can say this sh*t. And i can believe that no one else said this.
So i wish you good look with getting a sponsor who want to pay you or just wake the f*ck up and come living the real world were riders ride die hard everyday, pay 50 euro entering fee out of there own pocket and pay for there own trip because they just like riding and they hoop that they can get a sponsorship because there good in riding.
I'm sick off people like you beeing sponsord. And now you cot the balls to say this ****.
I don't what to say any more.
gr Dez
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Oke People What the F*ck. The first thing i did when i read this post was laughing my ass off. I mean come on this cant be serious.
Why the hell would khe pay YOU Flo Sailer a month salary why the hell are sponserd in the first place.
When was the last time you did end last in the competitions.
The sponsors need to wake up? You need to weak up. Take a look at you level of riding man.
I have been riding my ass of to get a sponsor. And then you are going to complain.
You off all sponsored flatland riders is the last one who can say this sh*t. And i can believe that no one else said this.
So i wish you good look with getting a sponsor who want to pay you or just wake the f*ck up and come living the real world were riders ride die hard everyday, pay 50 euro entering fee out of there own pocket and pay for there own trip because they just like riding and they hoop that they can get a sponsorship because there good in riding.
I'm sick off people like you beeing sponsord. And now you cot the balls to say this ****.
I don't what to say any more.
gr Dez
First things first. Learn to proof read your material. Spelling and gramar count! Second thing. It would be nice to be able to just ride, and not need to worry about money and parts, but the world revolves around money. KHE makes you pay $400 for a frame? Really? Why? Development? Whatever it is the cost is too much. Take some and pay the rider some. Just about 10 to 15 years ago you could buy a team model complete for that. IMO.
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I don't know where to start, and I hate posting in forums anymore. But, I have to say something. I personally sponsor to many people as it is with what I can. When I say personally, I mean it comes out of my pocket, not Sequence's pocket. You see, right now Sequence isn't making anything. Sure its turning a slight profit, but would you use the money to develope more product or pay whatever extra there might be to maybe one rider? I ride to damn it, and I'd like to go a contest or jam! I pay entry fees for my riders when I can and everyone gets free product....that is not cheap! Sequence is not big, yet, I just wonder if others realize that. I have what I have because I work a full-time job! I also have a family, Sequence, and then theres riding! I can't stand it when someone thinks they deserve something for riding and they don't even have a regular job. How do you think that makes me feel? I bust my ass to provide for my family, what I can for a few riders, and stay somewhat competitive in flatland contests. I don't rely on anyone for anything! Think about what your doing with your life and make things happen. Ride for fun, first. If something happens with flatland and your there to benefit finacially, be greatful. Don't expect something that is probably not there to begin with. I realized this when I made it to the X-Games and I actually thought I finally made it. It was about the time I got back home and went right back to work when I realized I was a fool. Don't get discouraged, there is obviously opportunity out there, look at Terry; however, be realistic. I hope this helped someone. Take care - Aaron
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I didn't say i didn't agree with that sponsors need to pay there riders is just said Flo Sailer is the wrong person to say this.
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I have entered BMX and Flatland only because of PRO riders. And the first reasons to get some companies parts or bike was because they were riding for them. For example i really liked riding of Seth Kimbrough, so I was going to buy Hoffman Bikes stuff. So this tells me that representing riders are really important for company success.
I would be really honored if someone would give me even a T-Shirt once in a while. Because then I'll know that they think I'm good, and I can represent them.
But as for PRO and Flow riders. To be really good you must do a lot, and thats hard to combine it with full time job to pay all your stupid bills. And getting around to contests and Jams require a lot of money too, and it's also realy hard to combine traveling with job. I think that big flatland companies should really help Pro riders, but so as Pro riders for companies. This isn't one side deal, you both have to work hard.
As for now, the perfect module I can think off is:
PRO - Free stuff, salary, contest entrances and traveling.
PRO Flow - Free stuff and helping to get to foreign countries.
Flow - Free stuff, and some candies! ;D
But as far as Flatland isn't multi million industry that could be really hard!
Thats my opinion at 3AM. But remember, riders have to do something so companies can really feel that you are doing something to increase value of your and their names! (Web, photo shots, video, blog, demos, public stuff, visiting Non-Pro Jams and Events and so on..)
Thanks for reading!
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Oke People What the F*ck. The first thing i did when i read this post was laughing my ass off. I mean come on this cant be serious.
Why the hell would khe pay YOU Flo Sailer a month salary why the hell is he sponserd in the first place.
When was the last time you did end last in the competitions.
The sponsors need to wake up? You need to weak up. Take a look at you level of riding man.
I have been riding my ass of to get a sponsor. And then you are going to complain.
You off all sponsored flatland riders is the last one who can say this sh*t. And i can believe that no one else said this.
So i wish you good look with getting a sponsor who want to pay you or just wake the f*ck up and come living the real world were riders ride die hard everyday, pay 50 euro entering fee out of there own pocket and pay for there own trip because they just like riding and they hoop that they can get a sponsorship because there good in riding.
I'm sick off people like you beeing sponsord. And now you cot the balls to say this ****.
I don't what to say any more.
gr Dez
Well, it wasn't the most eloquent way to put it, but aside from it being a criticism of skill level, it's the truth more or less. Unless there is a quantifiable way to justify that you are somehow more deserving then the thousands of other riders out in the world that are putting in the effort, any rider getting anything free from a company should be thankful, especially given the state of the flatland "market". For any business anywhere, employees are paid based upon what they do to affect the bottom line revenues of the employer. Millions of dollars are put out by companies of all sizes to track the effectiveness of their marketing efforts. So how can flatland companies without the resources to do that even begin to measure how much money to pay a rider for their amount of exposure? Back in the day, bike companies had riders constantly touring to promote their product, and riders would get paid based on things like numbers of shows performed, mileage, etc. With the hardcore movement in the 90's, riders started rebelling against that sort of "corporate" approach to promotion because they saw it as "selling out". I remember an Andrew Faris interview back in the day about when he first signed with Volume. Faris remarked about "not being into" touring and contests. As I recall, he wasn't on Volume for very long.... and if he wasn't out there busting his ass to promote the company, why should they have helped him?
I think a lot of riders are confused about promoting flatland versus promoting their company.... promoting flatland to get new riders into it and to grow the exposure of the sport is something EVERY rider is doing everytime they step out to session whether they are conscious of it or not. If you get paid to do it because you made the efforts to professionally set up an event or get contracted by a business to perform, that's awesome, but if you aren't doing that, no one owes you anything. We all owe it to flatland.
Promoting a company and it's products is a very different thing: it's a BUSINESS arrangement, and like any normal worker in the modern world, if you aren't producing tangible or quantifiable results, you are more then likely not going to get paid. If a rider is concerned about getting paid from who they are riding for, they need to do it like any other industry: draft up a contract proposal, state the specific goals they have for helping the company succeed and grow, cite their track record (which doesn't always have to be strictly contest placings), and negotiate from a realistic standpoint.
I really think it all boils down to one thing: Riders may have great skills, be able to design great parts, or place well in contests, but they are rarely ever good business people. And that goes for both the ones running the companies and the ones riding their parts.
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Dez, you're maybe thinking too much in terms of contests.
Placing well in contests is all very nice for your sponsor if you're one of the top 20 riders. But even then, selling an extra 3 top end frame a month makes little difference to their balance sheets.
If Flo, or other riders are doing 10 shows a month for school kids, getting on local TV or whatever, and selling an extra 6 low-end complete bikes.... that works out better for the company.
As I said, for the few at the top the trade offs for the sponsor are clear and direct, but below that it is much more down to the individual situation with the rider, and maybe not at all obvious from the outside.
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i think you should JUST ride and forget that you quit khe..at least they were giving you free parts..what are you gonna do when you sh*t breaks? just work and ride after work..keep your self motivated to ride..cuz you only ride to have fun and learn new links and tricks..the only people i see getting paid is dave mirra and matt hoffman...and to me personally you aint neither of them and plus you aint the only one with that dream of geting paid..shiit i wish i did too...thats why you have to hustle..look for different sponsors other than just bike companies..
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not to get off subject, but if you look at it in a "rags to riches" point of view, its kinda like the way nascar has come up from no name, backroads drivers to multi million dollar superstars. The trade off is very severe. Many drivers can't handle being told what to do, how you must act or how to speak in public. They have tons of problems w/the grueling 26 week race schedule(40 wks. when you add practice and testing). Ask yourself are you willing to get up at 5 a.m. every day to do photo shoots and tv commercials, public appearences by 10 a.m., lunch for a half an hour, press confrences or public speaking(usually at sponsors clients) til 3 p.m. then off to do your"job" of actually driving a car for a few hours, until more press interviews and autograph signings til 10:30p.m. Yep it's not just driving a car in circles.
As a rider making that kind of money you would definitely not be JUST riding a bike!!! Do you think many riders are out there that could handle that kind of pressure for any long period of time? That's what it takes when big dollars are involved.
THIS WAS AN EXTREMELY BLOWN OUT VIEW, BUT REMEMBER FOR EVERY EXTRA DOLLAR EARNED THERE WILL BE EXTRA WORK EXPECTED! IT'S JUST THE WAY OF THE CORPARATE WORLD.
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I dont even know who the hell you are.....who the hell are you?
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I don't know where to start, and I hate posting in forums anymore. But, I have to say something. I personally sponsor to many people as it is with what I can. When I say personally, I mean it comes out of my pocket, not Sequence's pocket. You see, right now Sequence isn't making anything. Sure its turning a slight profit, but would you use the money to develope more product or pay whatever extra there might be to maybe one rider? I ride to damn it, and I'd like to go a contest or jam! I pay entry fees for my riders when I can and everyone gets free product....that is not cheap! Sequence is not big, yet, I just wonder if others realize that. I have what I have because I work a full-time job! I also have a family, Sequence, and then theres riding! I can't stand it when someone thinks they deserve something for riding and they don't even have a regular job. How do you think that makes me feel? I bust my ass to provide for my family, what I can for a few riders, and stay somewhat competitive in flatland contests. I don't rely on anyone for anything! Think about what your doing with your life and make things happen. Ride for fun, first. If something happens with flatland and your there to benefit finacially, be greatful. Don't expect something that is probably not there to begin with. I realized this when I made it to the X-Games and I actually thought I finally made it. It was about the time I got back home and went right back to work when I realized I was a fool. Don't get discouraged, there is obviously opportunity out there, look at Terry; however, be realistic. I hope this helped someone. Take care - Aaron
arron , i think about this sh!t everyday!
every fu(king day i wake up , but maybe in another sence , my style in riding.
and on a flip side, i think there right now is a standard in flatland as far as tricks.
and not just putting someone on/off a team.
i thought i was that fool along time ago, so , i went the other way with my riding and couldnt be happier!
im glad things are working out for seqence the way they are, even though there is not alot of return right now in monatary form.
i will come bro!
and flo, i think you did what you needed to do , to make a statement.
i think it should be a message very clear to all of the riders , and companies, nomatter what company supoorts that individual.
i think you just had enough ,and said this is not right, and i truely dont think you are crazy for doing what you did, i honestly think there was heart that back it!
i hope all turns out well in the end for you, i m sure it will!
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tim
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There is money to be found in the porn industry. Hell, they even have similar "tricks" (fudge packer, etc.)
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how good is porn?
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you shopuld know how good stu
you love porn
i remember what sites you went on at the house
lol
sick mother %$#%^
lol
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@DEZ:
look perhaps your read not exactly..this is why i say it again:
i was pleased with my deal at khe! i did this step to change something in generell thats why i pass on my sponsoring and quit it! not to get money for myself itīs for all other riders in the flatteam of khe and other companies which are bigger and possible for them to pay something to their riders.
and i did not say that khe and others did everything wrong. no they supported a lot of riders the past years but when a company reaches a point where it could possible to pay some riders they should do it even itīs ot that much. but itīs a symbol!
yes itīs clear that riders should also look for other companies outside of bike bussines to get money for their work...
look dez, this step to leave khe and to speak loud why i did this and stand up for this issue costs me a lot not only that i did not get parts anymore i also have to handle hate from all kind of peoples.
riders are employees! thats what i fight for.
so itīs also for you perhaps you did not understand that?!
yor personal offences on my person are more than stupid.
like someone other said: beeing good n competitions is not the only way to bring benefit to your sponsor.
so dez you should learn to respect others more instead of attacking senseless especially you did not know a person.
ok thats it, i wish we could come back to the original diskussion.
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If a company sponsors a rider, its objective with that is very simple:
to get there name/products out there and sell more.
So if a sponsored rider is working to promote a company he should be rewarded for his work.
A PRO sponsored rider should get payed for how much he is promoting the company:
$ for top contest results,
$ for media exposure,
$ for demos/shows,
$ for sales profits on a signature parts.
Now the $ for all this depends on how much the company is profiting:
a small company can't afford this because it doesn't profit enough, so flowing some parts and paying contest fees is all that is actually possible.
a large company with large profits certainly can afford paying traveling expenses and $ for the promotional work that the rider is doing.
I think everyone agrees that if you put a huge effort into promoting a company you should be rewarded just as much.
There are plenty of talented riders willing to work there asses off but the truth is that there just aren't many large companys in flatland that are actually making big bucks these days, so the chances of you being the "lucky one" are slim.
Congratulations Flo, your statement was made, people are thinking and talking about something that was hidden in the closet.
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What an embarrassing act ...
First of all: What kind of stupid poll is this? Should pro rider get paid?
What the f*ck? You could also ask if it would be good if there was a cure for AIDS!
Of course it would be equitable if the top level flatland riders could earn money from their efforts and accomplishments. I think we all agree with that! They put more blood, sweat and tears in their thing than most of that over-paid sport stars or even that senseless show-acts!
But: We live in a market economy, for better or worse. Thats why the Black Eyed Peas live in mansions while Masta Ace struggles to pay his bills. If there is a demand, there is the big money!
Lets face it: Flatland is such a small scene. Did you ever wondered why there is not even one big bike company like Giant, Trek or whatever that offer Flatland bikes or parts? What did you thought? For a scene that is run by a pair of hundred riders? For a economic point of view this is just a unprofitable market. Its obvious that you have high costs by producing (for example) a frame in a small quantity. Plus, there is also the distributor and the BMX shop that needs a earning with that product. So, the bike company only gets a small part of the money that you pay for the frame. With that money they have to pay their costs.
So what really pisses me off about that posting is that Flo Seiler is bitching on companies that put so much effort in such an unprofitable market. I think he dont know sh*t about that business. Those companies did so much for flatland by creating better and more functional parts. They helped to maintain the attention for this culture. You should be thankful for that Flo, but instead you impute that those companies would exploit the riders!
Did you ever saw Martti or Vicky roll along with a Ferrari on a contest? Do you believe Marton or TG wear Rolex watches? Or Ed Nussbaum lives in Beverly Hills? This pepole work hard for the good of flatland. If the profits would be high enough to pay all the sponsored riders a salary, they would do it, im pretty sure. Aaron Frost already told his point of view as someone that runs a flatland company.
But Flo, stay honest. Why did you have to leave your sponsor to start this discussion? You might as well have started it while staying in the team. You pretend you were happy with your sponsor but sacrifice yourself by bitching in public??? Come on!
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hi x footed,
that this is your first comment shows everything ;D
first the poll stays in context with my post and if you read better you will find "even itīs little money and a symbol"
second please read more carefull.this could not be so hard..than this would pretend us for hearing stuff twice..first read!
i did not say give them 5000 a month or something i just say bigger companies in that business should pay their top riders a monthly salary and just start and set an example and
have a transparent and clear sponsoring system including incetives, budget for travelling etc..
thats what i have missed there. if a company wants to have professional riders they have to make their sponsoring more professional.
i also agree that khe did a lot in producing good parts etc. its more than stupid to say that i say something different.
if its totaly unprofitable no companie will do it. so ot could not too unprofitable.
khe is no small companie with 2 or 3 employees. and there income increases from year to year. so riders should also benifit from that increase in profit.
to say that i have no idea of that is totaly out of reallity...you know that
i think some people be afraid of changing something. this is normal and its normal that people try to stop changes than.
i try to start this discussion while staying in the team very often. to search a public discussion was the result of not beeing heard at khe.
and by the why, that there is so much trouble because of that now, shows that their is a need to talk about that!
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i forgott:
and i wish riders where seen as employees! and such as every other employee at a company they should get money for their work!
in the context of "is the company able to pay"..mean most of the smaller flatcompanies wonīt thats clear.
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I'm impressed at how much everyone is staying semi-relaxed in this debate. Especially Flo Sailer after being attacked on several occasions, it really makes your opinion a lot more respectable when you can present it in a fashion that doesn't include "f***" "s***" and all those other wonderful terms we use.
I'd say what you are doing is for the right reasons, out to better the flatland world for everyone, it's very few people who take the time and effort to do that anymore and I think those that take on these kind of things should get recognized for it, especially people throwing events, we don't seem to appreciate anything as flatlanders (but that's a whole other topic).
I also think asking the general public (in the flatland world) is a good start, but I don't think many flatlanders on here are "pro" in the general sense of the word and most probably haven't dealt with any serious sponserships, making everyone slightly biased. What Aaron said makes a good point, a lot of companies in the flatland world are far to small to go around throwing money, and I believe you stated you wouldn't expect a company that small to throw money at riders, but larger companies like KHE might be able too.
And on a final note, I think companies hand out sponserships easier then they should, but a lot of them are probably personal relationships that developed previous to sponsership, like in finding jobs nowadays and that, but maybe if only the TOP pristine riders that show up at contest after contest, and place rather high were sponsered, maybe at least those guys could make a living. I'm sure there are a lot of ups and downs to all this, interesting topic though, they are pretty rare on Global-Flat nowadays.
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Where are Trevor, Kevin, Chase, etc.? All of them lived and rode in the days when Flatland could provide a rider with $30,000+ annuallly.
Was it not only 10 years ago that 1st prize was $10,000, plus certain companies matching whatever their rider won? I cannot recollect a contest in the US where the Pro purse was $10,000 since I began riding a few years ago.
It's not the companies, no, its probably the recluse hermits of the Flatland world.
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Hello everybody,
my name is Gido Hinz, riding since ī82 and Iīm a "pro"-ramp rider since 15 years.
In my eyes:
BMX riders shouldnīt get a monthly payment because it is not our sport if you get paid for it. This is not a job and it shouldnīt be one.
BMX rider should get money if they do shows or contest riding or something but only to pay their costs (traveling, food, hotel, entry fee and so on).
Iīm allways happy to get parts cheaper or for free but I donīt want any money for having a good time with my friends.
For me it would be better if the BMX industrie would help us more (with money) to get good places for riding. Like Halls where we (Flatlander and Ramprider together) can ride in winter and rain periods. This seems better then supporting just one or two persons.
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Where are Trevor, Kevin, Chase, etc.? All of them lived and rode in the days when Flatland could provide a rider with $30,000+ annuallly.
Was it not only 10 years ago that 1st prize was $10,000, plus certain companies matching whatever their rider won? I cannot recollect a contest in the US where the Pro purse was $10,000 since I began riding a few years ago.
It's not the companies, no, its probably the recluse hermits of the Flatland world.
was it really $30,000 anually? daannng...how much do pornstars make now-a-days?? ^_^
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was it really $30,000 anually? daannng...how much do pornstars make now-a-days?? ^_^
Somewhere around $2500 to $3500 a day.
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I totally agree with gido...
Riding BMX is NOT a job...you can put as much effort into it as you want...but it's definetly NOT a job...face it...flatland will never be a sport to earn money with. Some pro riders can, at least for a period of time...I think demanding a monthly income from a company, whether it is small or big, is way to extreme and we are missing the proportions here.
Riding flatland is something that I love and I hope I can do it for a long tim...
BUT THERE IS NO MONEY IN THAT!!!!!!
You can earn some itzy-bitzy money by riding shows and contest...but that's it.
And I don't get the sense of this "even its only little money and a symbol"...you can't pay your bills with a symbolic amount of money....be honest...this makes the whole thread washy...
Look...there is the "real life", where you have to work (REAL WORK!!! FLATLAND IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE REAL WORK...I DON'T WANT TO RIDE FLATLAND ANYMORE IF IT BECOMES A REAL JOB!!), struggle through everyday life and make your girlfriend happy...and then there is flatland...this shiny, little bubble of a sport, which makes YOU happy and lets you have good times with people you like.
Flatland is not WORKING, even if it sometimes seems like it (of course some can say doing whatever 6-10 hours a day is a job). If flatland gets downgraded to working...man...that would be sad.
Get a REAL JOB everyone and ride flatland because you love it.
nuff said
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Get a REAL JOB everyone and ride flatland because you love it.
nuff said
Yeah a REAL job like professional ATHLETES have and professional DANCERS and ACTORS and ARTISTS and EVERYTHING THAT PEOPLE ENJOY THAT IS EITHER ENTERTAINING OR PRODUCTIVE.
shame on you little kids riding those bikes that your sport is NOTHING like any of those. It doesn't take patience, creativity, and the tenacity to see things through! Phhht. It's just FUN and that's IT.
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A living wage is important...FOR A PRO RIDER, they do more than just ride. THE ACTION SPORTS INDUSTRY is encompassed with riders, it exists due to riders or better HUMAN BEINGS! Comps, bikes, all these things have worth and value but can be replaced. Many people are happy to be employed by this industry. Everything works together to provide and give back to the riding community. THEY DO HAVE FUN ALSO, that does not mean values and standards should not be questioned or improved. Most riders are also involved in marketing and other developments in this industry, they don't just ride only and go to comps and jams. You should know this before saying it's not a JOB. Everything is work in some form or other, if you can enjoy and get paid, that is what most dream, but even then nothing is perfect, improvements are required and a desire for such is a need or we would be living in a world where all is dull, without progression. Be happy and don't say anything, WTF is that?!
FOOKING put some value to Pro Flatlanders and all those involved in the industry!!!
You need to be around REAL PRO RIDERS IN THE INDUSTRY OR THOSE INVOLVED IN THE INDUSTRY TO KNOW WHAT THEIR LIFE IS DAY TO DAY! You just slapped every pro flatlander and place them as being worthless! Fun is when you can handle a FUGAZI( Situation ****ed UP),
and walk away without a cry, I don't think there are many Buddha's out there in a state of pure bliss when the **** hits the fan. FUN in the big picture in life: Simple situation, I bet if someone stole your bike or a part broke and you had NO money to replace, how much fun is that going to be, with knowing materialism can be replaced!
FLO can you Skateboard or FreeRide they have more worth for their riders in this industry and so does its community. Its just appalling and disgusting not to put worth to people who have dedicated their life to their sport and its industry or to those who do give back to the community be it in riding or not!
To the whole porn HAHAHEEHEE...you'd be lucky to have a big dick let alone to use it to get it up. I'll tell you this coming from a woman: women out number the men in that industry, only a few know how to get it up and turn on, cuz JOE most women are masters at faking orgasms...good luck...its sad placing this as a joke. If you are wanting joke and make a mockery of all this then... well I'd like to really laugh...N
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I totally agree with gido...
Riding BMX is NOT a job...you can put as much effort into it as you want...but it's definetly NOT a job...face it...flatland will never be a sport to earn money with. Some pro riders can, at least for a period of time...I think demanding a monthly income from a company, whether it is small or big, is way to extreme and we are missing the proportions here.
Riding flatland is something that I love and I hope I can do it for a long tim...
BUT THERE IS NO MONEY IN THAT!!!!!!
You can earn some itzy-bitzy money by riding shows and contest...but that's it.
And I don't get the sense of this "even its only little money and a symbol"...you can't pay your bills with a symbolic amount of money....be honest...this makes the whole thread washy...
Look...there is the "real life", where you have to work (REAL WORK!!! FLATLAND IS NOT AND WILL NEVER BE REAL WORK...I DON'T WANT TO RIDE FLATLAND ANYMORE IF IT BECOMES A REAL JOB!!), struggle through everyday life and make your girlfriend happy...and then there is flatland...this shiny, little bubble of a sport, which makes YOU happy and lets you have good times with people you like.
Flatland is not WORKING, even if it sometimes seems like it (of course some can say doing whatever 6-10 hours a day is a job). If flatland gets downgraded to working...man...that would be sad.
Get a REAL JOB everyone and ride flatland because you love it.
nuff said
???
does that mean getting a real job means you hate your work and compensate that with riding. why not getting money for something you love and you are good in?
should mike s. get a real job? does he hate flatland?
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hi
i donīt agree that bmx or flatland could or should not be a job. like asc said...
think about the following:
one big "mistake" in the bmx/flat industrie is that most people "outside" of riding earn money or more money with their flatland related work than 90% of pro riders. to me this seems a problem and i know that because i run fac-agency and bidc.
but back to the main topic...
my goal was and is to bring a diskussion out and make an example with the hope something will change. not only better for riders also for the companies.
i agree with scott that there is a lag of sponsoring standards.
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Hook up with some other big rap/hip hop star and make another video clip. ^_^
You and Seppl are the only riders I know of to do this.
It would pay better than a bike sponsor. ;D
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As long as there are people who will ride for KHE for free you will never get paid to be a rider. Its a shame that you can love a sport so much, and it always ends up coming down to the money. You should realize that KHE will still sell just as much in inventory whether you are riding for them or not, they probably didn't really care that you left, they can find somebody else. If you want to make money get a job...hell just sweep the floors for KHE for 10$/hour, but if you want to bike then bike, With flatland you cant get the best of both worlds.
The people working for the company make more money because they help put out a product, the riders make less/no money because they have no signifacants to the production of the products, and have a little significants to the selling of the product. If you are going to buy a KHE bike do you think it matters to the normal person who it is they sponsor?
Its up to somebody to find a way for riders to be able to make money, but like all atheletes in non-market sprots its about the sponsorships, and flatland compies realize they dont need to pay sponsorships to get their name out ther. Michael Johnson wearing Nike shoes in a comercial may help Nike sell some shoes, but in a small market like flatland having Matt Whilhelm ride a Suelo probably wont increase sales any significant amount.
Flatland has no public market, therefore you wont get paid to do it. End o' Story
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this whole topic is sad...
I wish I had a pony... Oh, yeah, I went out, got a job, and bought one.
Flo, I've seen you ride on video. You should have been glad to be getting flow from a company like khe.
If there was money in the sport, then guys would get paid. There isn't so guys don't.
Everyone keeps mentioning Terry. The reason why is he went OUTSIDE of the sport to get sponsors. (that is smart, because we all know that flatland specific companies hardly make profit with how f*ckle this sport is).
But, seriously if you want to make money, get a job.
Until flatland learns to turn the amazing talents of its riders into a marketable product...
It will stay small with only a few guys that make a decent living off of it.
A smart pro rider would go after the large companies to sponsor them, because they have budgets to do that type of thing.
But, then guys would laugh at them and call them a sellout...
You can't have it both ways.
Its either starving "artists".
Or "sellouts"...
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first off props to ppl like frost for doing everything they can to promote and hook up riders.even am class.props to flo for standing up for what he thought was right.maybe other riders will do the same.weather khe has the means to give out more cash to there riders i really dont know so i cant really call them f*cked cuz idk.if the money isnt there its not therebut it would be great if riders could make a better living at what they do. and to everyone saying get a job and sh*t like that your just retared and a hating your not even close to getting paid at what u love so u wanna bring everyone else down. i knew oince the topic of work came up glen would pop up like that fat friend of the girl your tring to take home at the club.
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Sorry for the late reply, been away for a week in the UK.
Wow this is a hot topic.
From a business side versus a riders side I dont think all relevant information has been submitted.
I have worked closely with KHE in the past, and I know of riders that KHE has paid etc.
Flo, while I think you are a good rider. If I had been asked by Thomas if I thought you were good enough to pay a wage for I would have advised against it.
This is not because I think you are a bad rider, but because there are so many good riders who are willing to switch sponsors for the smallest amount of money, and quite frankly the market for pro paid riders is tiny. Unfortunately what many riders dont realize is that its not just about tricks but image, media attention etc.
If we look at the ramp rider "Rick Thorne" he is by no means the best rider or even up there with the top 10, however he is in the media's attention on a regular basis.
So if any riders out there want to work in flatland in terms of earning a regular wage then they will need to realize that at present its a low paying job and very hard to gain employment.
Furthermore it requires much more than just tricks.
Hope it works out better for you in the future.
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I honestly think companies shouldn't be paying riders unless the company decides it's in their best interest. Honestly right now it just isn't. There is no point in paying any riders since so many riders will ride for parts. If EVERYONE quit their sponsers and said they needed to be paid.. then maybe companies would come around, but it's not going to work out like that.
Personally I think leaving a sponser because they won't pay you is a pretty stupid reason for leaving in the first place. I work my ass off in riding and I don't ask for anything but when I see riders kind of like Dez mentioned, that put everything they have into their riding trying to build themselves up so they CAN ride for a living... and then get nothing.. It's a real slap in the face to those guys if you ask me.
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Yeah a REAL job like professional ATHLETES have and professional DANCERS and ACTORS and ARTISTS and EVERYTHING THAT PEOPLE ENJOY THAT IS EITHER ENTERTAINING OR PRODUCTIVE.
...you think a flatland rider will ever be a part of those (maybe) 5% of people who earn money through their hobby/sport and make a real living of it...not in a long term...riders like Martti or Vikky showed the way, but this whole sport is not nearly big enough for every pro rider to open up his own company...
I didn't want to say you have to hate your job and just ride to compensate it...that's just the way I think about it...
I cannot disagree to what ASC is saying, but the riding itself is NOT a job....advertisment, designing parts, foto shootings, shows...that's part of the job...
Singing is not a job either...but being that person that sings is job.
I'm not nearly a pro rider so I can't put myself in those shoes...and I did NOT mean to talk **** about their efforts or anything...
....
But, seriously if you want to make money, get a job.
...I mean think about...how would a company, that sees its' riders as "employees" value their work...okay...you ride 30 hours a week...you get this and that...oh...you are injured...sorry...not in the contract...
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If you are a SPONSORED PRO RIDER that is RIDING with the objective of PROMOTING the company - than its a JOB.
Just like that Company has to pay to put ads in magazines, (...etc) it SHOULD pay the rider that is PROMOTING there company.
Now, a small company that doesn't have the funds and wants a PRO RIDER to promote there brand, they get riders that will ride just for the love of riding but its still work they are doing, you can just consider then VOLUNTEERS, helping out a small company they like.
It seems that BIG Company's are also following this idea, which is the problem and thats why Flo has decided to quit his sponsor. Its up to the Pro riders to decide if they should accept that type of situation. By accepting they are lowering the standards. And thats not good for the Pro Riders or riders that aspire to get there one day.
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If you are a SPONSORED PRO RIDER that is RIDING with the objective of PROMOTING the company - than its a JOB.
Just like that Company has to pay to put ads in magazines, (...etc) it SHOULD pay the rider that is PROMOTING there company.
Now, a small company that doesn't have the funds and wants a PRO RIDER to promote there brand, they get riders that will ride just for the love of riding but its still work they are doing, you can just consider then VOLUNTEERS, helping out a small company they like.
It seems that BIG Company's are also following this idea, which is the problem and thats why Flo has decided to quit his sponsor. Its up to the Pro riders to decide if they should accept that type of situation. By accepting they are lowering the standards. And thats not good for the Pro Riders or riders that aspire to get there one day.
Do you work in the industry or is all this self interpretation & speculation?
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look,
i did not go to khe and said i want money...my deal was ok. i know that iīm not at the ultra top level..like dez metioned so niceley...but thats not my main misson...i see myself organizing etc...(battle in da club tour, fac-agency and more)...and yes i got a lot of attention outside of bmx scene and have coverage...so khe knows that and thats one reason why they supported me..not because im the contest monster...
i hope that is clear now...i dont want to repead myself at every new site in this tread---
and be shure i worked my ass off the whole day for flatland and bmx and others not just myself...
i did this because i think riders in the world team should get money
and their should be a sponsoring system with carrots and sticks..based on
results in events
media coverage
ideas for products
and some more
and there are 20 people working at khe and get money for their work. why pro world team riders should not get money? they are the most important part for the image and the sells...this is fact if khe or any other company did not agree please stop sponsoring riders and you will see what will happen.
yes, itīs right that if more pro riders would make some noise it could change something...
i made a lot of proposals to khe the past year for that issue but i did not get clear answers or feedback.
i think itīs not good for the team athmosphere that one riders knows nothing about other riders deal and that there is no clear system of sponsoring.
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this topic makes me wanna set myself on fire...how bout lets us all forget that flatland is not making any money and just ride for the fun of it...ride because that was the best thing you ever saw when you first saw it...or sh*t call up doctor phil and tell him to solve your problems ;D
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Look, i'm not here to step on any toes but here goes anyway. I buy my parts for Many different reasons and no offence but NONE of those reasons has anything to do with whos riding them or whos reppin the company. I also see riders as individuals not the logos that may be on thier backs. Its very rare for me to know who rides for who even at pro levels so using that point of view why should a company pay?
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this topic makes me wanna set myself on fire...how bout lets us all forget that flatland is not making any money and just ride for the fun of it...ride because that was the best thing you ever saw when you first saw it...or **** call up doctor phil and tell him to solve your problems ;D
get out of this thread if you have nothing to contribute other than "forget about it! ride for fun!".
Don't you get it that all people want to do is ride, and because they ride all the time they are better than ALL of us and happen to market the parts they ride fulltime? It's a JOB. Some people would like to persue that as a full time gig because they love it so much.
So many schmucks hate their 9-5, and so many other people are living the dream in their career feild. Why shouldn't flatland be any different?
James - You might not buy the parts for those reasons, but I know I bought my Kun Fu because I really respect adams riding and his input into the frame designs. I know the whole OG crew and all the guys that ride and test those parts are really damn good riders, and they wern't just thrown on some beginner riders bike and put through rigorous fork glide tests. It's a name brand thing. You may not be buying a KGB because martti or viki ride one.. But sure as sh*t a hell of a lot of other people are.
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I still dont know who the hell this guy is.......someone tell me who he is!
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I still dont know who the hell this guy is.......someone tell me who he is!
Jesus christ Joe. It's Orlando f*cking Bloom. Do you not know who that is?
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to be honest, it's not exactly clear what you are trying to do, you say you were happy with the deal you had and that you were not looking for money, but yet you quit because you want other riders to get paid -....yeah sorry but that doesn't make sense.
i think itīs not good for the team athmosphere that one riders knows nothing about other riders deal and that there is no clear system of sponsoring.
why would they tell you the details of other peoples deals? that's none of your business, same as any job, you dont get information on what anyone else gets paid.
you should only get paid to ride if you are making more money for the company than they are paying you. otherwise it is a waste of money for them. i think it's insulting to any company who is good enough to give people free equipment and parts etc to ask them for money too...
why pro world team riders should not get money? they are the most important part for the image and the sells
that's just not true, i didn't buy my bike or any past frames or parts because of who rode them or designed them or who was sponsored at the time. and if you look at all the posts from beginner riders on here looking for complete bikes, they dont go by pro riders names or what's cool. people buy frames and parts for quality and value, im just speaking as someone relatively new to the sport, maybe it's different for veteran riders like TJ said.
anyway,
i just think flatland is too small as and industry to afford to pay people a salary to ride, unless the rider can make the company even more than the salary.
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to be honest, it's not exactly clear what you are trying to do, you say you were happy with the deal you had and that you were not looking for money, but yet you quit because you want other riders to get paid -....yeah sorry but that doesn't make sense.
i think itīs not good for the team athmosphere that one riders knows nothing about other riders deal and that there is no clear system of sponsoring.
why would they tell you the details of other peoples deals? that's none of your business, same as any job, you dont get information on what anyone else gets paid.
you should only get paid to ride if you are making more money for the company than they are paying you. otherwise it is a waste of money for them. i think it's insulting to any company who is good enough to give people free equipment and parts etc to ask them for money too...
why pro world team riders should not get money? they are the most important part for the image and the sells
that's just not true, i didn't buy my bike or any past frames or parts because of who rode them or designed them or who was sponsored at the time. and if you look at all the posts from beginner riders on here looking for complete bikes, they dont go by pro riders names or what's cool. people buy frames and parts for quality and value, im just speaking as someone relatively new to the sport, maybe it's different for veteran riders like TJ said.
anyway,
i just think flatland is too small as and industry to afford to pay people a salary to ride, unless the rider can make the company even more than the salary.
and your still working on hang5s and megspins right...f*cking two years later
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and your still working on hang5s and megspins right...****ing two years later
WOW thanks for that contribution to the debate. I'm sure as sh*t there is a lot that I'm doing that you arn't so I guess that makes YOUR opinion null and void too huh?
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yo as much as every noob sucks your dick..i dont give a **** about it....theres a lot of sh*t i can do that you cant do either...you see me pointing it out...no right?
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this topic makes me wanna set myself on fire...how bout lets us all forget that flatland is not making any money and just ride for the fun of it...ride because that was the best thing you ever saw when you first saw it...or **** call up doctor phil and tell him to solve your problems ;D
get out of this thread if you have nothing to contribute other than "forget about it! ride for fun!".
Don't you get it that all people want to do is ride, and because they ride all the time they are better than ALL of us and happen to market the parts they ride fulltime? It's a JOB. Some people would like to persue that as a full time gig because they love it so much.
So many schmucks hate their 9-5, and so many other people are living the dream in their career feild. Why shouldn't flatland be any different?
James - You might not buy the parts for those reasons, but I know I bought my Kun Fu because I really respect adams riding and his input into the frame designs. I know the whole OG crew and all the guys that ride and test those parts are really damn good riders, and they wern't just thrown on some beginner riders bike and put through rigorous fork glide tests. It's a name brand thing. You may not be buying a KGB because martti or viki ride one.. But sure as **** a hell of a lot of other people are.
okay ill contirbute..here goes my 2 cents...dude face the facts..flatland aint big..why bitch about it. i really dont see why this dude quit..he should have stayed at least this fool was getting free sh*t..i mean if he had to pay some sort of money for his parts then i would agree..but come on dude..i saw some footage of him and i wasnt impressed... anywho who wouldnt want to get payed..theres other ways of making money..like clothing companies, shoe companies, etc.. i mean..dont go after just bike companies cuz everyone knows that flatland "in there eyes" wont make any money...i dont know whatever though im done thinking that flatland would ever get big..i rather just ride and rep for some companies that are bout it and live happy with just riding..oh and to kick some ass
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and your still working on hang5s and megspins right...****ing two years later
what are you talking about? i just started riding again a few months ago, but hey great contribution, real insightful keep it comin.
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ya whatever..keep "debating...."
im sure you guys will find the solution and enlighten us all
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OOH man....I love how everything ends like this. Imagine if this was a serious board meeting in a company discussing this issue..everyone would be quitting or get out and ride to clear the heads;D
Let's Flow this back:
STANDARDS is a huge issue in any working environment. You don't have be in this industry to understand when change is required.
I know a good handful of pro riders, and THEY DO MORE THAN JUST RIDE FOR THE COMPANY. They work with marketing management, some in parks and development, others shoe development, and one in certification for instructors teaching action sports within the community, and so on in education level.
We know Pro's have designed parts, but the proper marketing for the product should have been there. Flo mention he curated or runs if I'm correct BIDC. I am sure other pros are doing more than what is it required in their contract. One Pro rider I know did 3 jobs in the company besides riding and a job outside as a dish washer. The pay in the company stayed the same, until he spoke up about his contribution and worth, it took some time, he worked for a huge SK8 company. Hate to say it again but Flo as a pro you or any rider in the industry can not look at one area of support/sponsorship alone, unless you are involved in more ways than one in a company, then I can understand your need for these changes. Anyone in the sports or entertainment industry has had to create living sustainability through more than one channel even if they are supported by a multi-million dollar corp. Even huge corp have to do mergers to just stay on top and in some cases to exist.
This industry that being action sports needs to address riding and the rider in a different manner. Doing one thing in this industry does not exist anymore, if you are doing more, then Your Role should be clear in the contract. Most companies be they small or big never go by employment standards let alone by their ever changing policies, sometimes this information is not even given to the employee. I hate to say this, but this concept of one income in sports industry is never going to change, but putting value and worth to THE PRO RIDER needs to be addressed and changed.
A highly profitable company that fully supports Flatland needs to step up and market better. Its a two way thing, but a oneway income support thats given only to the marketing director, yet sometimes a rider is fully involved even in the design and concept creation. You get where I am going. Public image has lot of power. Hence look at the insight you are gaining directly from the user/consumer in here. That's why is it also important for a Pro Rider to be active in the community for support when certain aspects fail. Your poll is standing strong whether we agree or not with your decision on this issue. We also like to keep the pros humble when they forget where they come from, so don't take it to heart.
ALL THESE THINGS HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER: The industry, government, riders, and the communities. Big stand in the bigger picture but better to start with the baby steps. Anyway have self worth and confidence within first, no matter what you do and whatever happens.
Don't worry it will take time but things will work out. Its a start. I only hope things change for the betterment of all.
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Well things must be happening if these issues are propping up. Maybe this industry and its user is growing. Anyway time to cook...Neela
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yo as much as every noob sucks your dick..i dont give a **** about it....theres a lot of **** i can do that you cant do either...you see me pointing it out...no right?
Actually yes I do see you pointing it out. See your post prior to this one you moron :huh:
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ya who asked you to stick youre nose in...- because he sucks up and called you a veteran rider?..whatever - i dont need to copy your tricks to make myself feel better or prove sh*t to you....ya out of curiousity tell me though what tricks these are that ypou think you can one-up me on....dont worry i got enough of an original direction and tricks.....its funny how all these yag noobs that ride once in a blue moon think they actually understand wtf pro level riders go through and deserve for thier efforts....go learn that ****ing megaspin and hang 5- see how hard that was? now imagine someone who went many many stages beyond that....oh but he hasnt acheived **** compared to your yag office jobs right?..but no he has to do shows and contests and "entertain" the public...thats what really counts....not spontaneously creating more and more possibilities.....whatever though...moneys everything? right
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Yet more proof that flatland is doomed: riders that equate riding skill with intelligence level. Sweet. I'd love to see some "skilled" flat rider talk down to a "noob" and then watch the noob put his bike down and kick the skilled rider's a**, after which the noob immediately crashes a hang 5 attempt.
Only in flatland, baby... lol
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ya wow
impress me with your intelligence then
****ign nerds...**** all this ****...**** everyone and everything
care about all this sh*t flatland politics but i rarely ever see any crazy new tricks...no wonder flatland isnt worth sh*t....seeing the same riders doing the same tricks...you think that audience cares to see the exact same things again and again and again
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Yet more proof that flatland is doomed: riders that equate riding skill with intelligence level. Sweet. I'd love to see some "skilled" flat rider talk down to a "noob" and then watch the noob put his bike down and kick the skilled rider's a**, after which the noob immediately crashes a hang 5 attempt.
Only in flatland, baby... lol
that would be a great story..please..go on ;D
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(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u185/blind15d/2girls.jpg)
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ywhatever though...moneys everything? right
How old are you? 16? Still sucking off mommys tit because you can't pay rent on your own? **** you.
Money is how you KEEP RIDING. Money pays for rent, parts, food, living expenses so you can keep up your standard of living and continue riding. Without cash riders wear through tires and ride on tubes that eventually burst and then you're stuck with a pretty fly set of rims and not much more to ride on.
Unfortunately you're too busy calling people out on what tricks they can do to see the forest from the ****ing TREES right in front of you. If you want to act like the hopeless artist scraping together pennis from out under coinstar machines so you can make yourself another cheese sandwich and fix the flat you got from riding through the ****ty neighborhood to get to your ****ty flat which you can barely afford because you're too busy "creating" to actually get a job or better yet, promoting your madd skillz so someone can give you those tires and tubes so it's one less thing to worry about, then go right ahead.
That's right, **** everything, including you you pompous peice of ****. I don't give a **** what people think of my riding because no matter how much they criticize me they can't touch what I do on my bike whether that's a track stand or some insanely hard 1 minute line. It's personal, and it's more importantly MINE.
So yeah, **** you, get out. nobody really wants to hear what dumb **** you have to say anyway because you're too busy calling out people who apparently have only been riding a couple of months for not being the next matthias or miller.
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ya wow
impress me with your intelligence then
****ign nerds...**** all this ****...**** everyone and everything
care about all this **** flatland politics but i rarely ever see any crazy new tricks...no wonder flatland isnt worth ****....seeing the same riders doing the same tricks...you think that audience cares to see the exact same things again and again and again
WELL THEN ENLIGHTEN US mr creativity. Throw some sh*t on youtube and let's see how valid your opinions really are based on your trick vocabulary.
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It's awesome to see that a rider "don't care about ******* flatland and y'alls a bunch of ******nerds".... and yet somehow cares enough to make sure to carefully edit almost each and every one of his posts. ;D That's keepin' it really real yo! hahahaha
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ywhatever though...moneys everything? right
How old are you? 16? Still sucking off mommys tit because you can't pay rent on your own? **** you.
Money is how you KEEP RIDING. Money pays for rent, parts, food, living expenses so you can keep up your standard of living and continue riding. Without cash riders wear through tires and ride on tubes that eventually burst and then you're stuck with a pretty fly set of rims and not much more to ride on.
Unfortunately you're too busy calling people out on what tricks they can do to see the forest from the ****ing TREES right in front of you. If you want to act like the hopeless artist scraping together pennis from out under coinstar machines so you can make yourself another cheese sandwich and fix the flat you got from riding through the ****ty neighborhood to get to your ****ty flat which you can barely afford because you're too busy "creating" to actually get a job or better yet, promoting your madd skillz so someone can give you those tires and tubes so it's one less thing to worry about, then go right ahead.
That's right, **** everything, including you you pompous peice of ****. I don't give a **** what people think of my riding because no matter how much they criticize me they can't touch what I do on my bike whether that's a track stand or some insanely hard 1 minute line. It's personal, and it's more importantly MINE.
So yeah, **** you, get out. nobody really wants to hear what dumb **** you have to say anyway because you're too busy calling out people who apparently have only been riding a couple of months for not being the next matthias or miller.
hahaha wow...are you f*cking dumb...thats not even the context i meant it in but anyways i dont need to sit here and explain my self to you...think what you want you gay bitch
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oh and no one can "touch" what you do on your bike? dont kid yourself
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hahaha wow...are you ****ing dumb...thats not even the context i meant it in but anyways i dont need to sit here and explain my self to you...think what you want you yag bitch
You're right, you don't need to sit here. f*ck off and get out. Go find a nice quiet flat spot and be as artistic as you want because believe you me, flatland will NOT miss a prick like you.
edit: Yes no one can touch what I do, not in a trick sense, but in a personal sense. Nobody can understand what I'm feeling when I ride, or what I'm thinking but me. So no, it's not about the tricks, it's about what goes into them. Unfortunately I thought an "artist" like you might appreciate that sort of perspective but unfortunately since it's you, you're too thick to understand the abstract of what I was trying to say.
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hahaha wow....you think youre f*cking special because of your "feelings"?
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hahaha wow....you think youre ****ing special because of your "feelings"?
You think you're special because of your "riding" or "tricks"?
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not really? did i say i was? for some reason you thought you can oneup me by telling me you can do tricks i cant do? so f*cking what? theres enough tricks i can do that you cant do
does that mean anything?
oh and im not a struggling "artist" btw or riding or getting flat tires...dont know where the f*ck you get or made that up from
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not really? did i say i was? for some reason you thought you can oneup me by telling me you can do tricks i cant do? so ****ing what? theres enough tricks i can do that you cant do
does that mean anything?
oh and im not a struggling "artist" btw or riding or getting flat tires...dont know where the **** you get or made that up from
I didn't try to one up you, I was making a point that what you said about the guy only doing hang 5s and megaspins was really really rude. I don't compare myself to anyone, least of all you, so I don't see how I was trying to make my riding to be better or worse than yours.
what you're suggesting IS the model of struggling artist, I just think you're too dense to realize that.
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omg...whatever i dont even know wtf to talk to you about anymore
enjoy yourself and the forum
peace
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for a start wtf has my comment on a debate about sponsorship got to do with my personal level of riding? what are you insane? and why did you even mention that? my opinion only counts depending how good i am on a bike? what age are you?
and also, i dont know who TJ is or you or what level of riding you are at and i dont follow who's who in flatland i dont give a ****. i said veteran riders meaning everyone thats been riding for a long time, (i thought that was pretty obvious) that might include you for all i know. why you had to single TJ out of something i said about riders in general is something for you to figure out :huh:
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and there are 20 people working at khe and get money for their work. why pro world team riders should not get money? they are the most important part for the image and the sells...this is fact if khe or any other company did not agree please stop sponsoring riders and you will see what will happen.
The people who make the product get paid the most, the advertisers get paid less, and the users get paid less than that..if anything at all.Its like when someone gets paid 100$ to wear a banner to advertise a restaurant you know.
Are there only 20 employees at KHE? If so the riders have absolutely no change of getting paid any significant wage.
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again who the f*ckare you
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Just go to KHE Flow or Pro team web page and try to figure it out unless they dropped him out of site already.Yo are you Euro Flo?
After reading TJ and E-mot going at each other(Flatland rappers, high trick rollers), We think its time for an AM comp, While Neela is still around, Winter UTM or Summer at a rink? WE are only doing one Flatland Jam/comp this year. So let us know soon when ya'll up for a riding battle.
- ASC
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Just go to KHE Flow or Pro team web page and try to figure it out unless they dropped him out of site already.Yo are you Euro Flo?
After reading TJ and E-mot going at each other(Flatland rappers, high trick rollers), We think its time for an AM comp, While Neela is still around, Winter UTM or Summer at a rink? WE are only doing one Flatland Jam/comp this year. So let us know soon when ya'll up for a riding battle.
- ASC
Wow! It's like Sean McKinney vs. Scott Powell all over again! Not sure who E-Motion is or what he's got up his sleeve, but if he's claiming he can go trick for trick against Perry, then that'd be a nice battle...
Oh, and to give respect to the original topic... I voted no, unless the rider is either an official employee of the company in some contracted, professionally agreed upon capacity. (^_^)V
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OK
2 people on here i want to talk to directly, and add to it a bit!!!
xjamesx- you where tlaking about you dont buy a product based on endorsements. i ve never once ever bought a product because it was endorsed by a so called rider, or a so called company, not once! i run pretty much all my own one off or modified sh!t that i know will hold up to the crazy abuse i put my bike through. period. but, if i needed to buy something from pat , or who ever.
i would solely buy a product not based on
endorsement
company name
cosmetic appeal
or weight.
but more on strength, and ease of installation/and or any matinece issues that might occur during a certain time period.
.tj perry.
where we not just talking in a different thread about how the people that dont give a fu(k are the true ones that run this sport, and the ones that people truly take notice of 90% of the time?
please correct me if i m wrong tj.
i feel if money is taken away from a lot of things , it makes things pure, and respectable again .
and i can say this as a personal lesson i have learned in life going from making 70 k a year being a automotive painter to making around close to $8 a hour and making it pay check to paycheck with little or no $$$ left in the bank @ the end of the week.just to be able to ride my bike as much as i do everyday
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please only write comments related on that thread..
no personal "fights" please..this is senseless..
thank you all
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Just go to KHE Flow or Pro team web page and try to figure it out unless they dropped him out of site already.Yo are you Euro Flo?
After reading TJ and E-mot going at each other(Flatland rappers, high trick rollers), We think its time for an AM comp, While Neela is still around, Winter UTM or Summer at a rink? WE are only doing one Flatland Jam/comp this year. So let us know soon when ya'll up for a riding battle.
- ASC
Wow! It's like Sean McKinney vs. Scott Powell all over again! Not sure who E-Motion is or what he's got up his sleeve, but if he's claiming he can go trick for trick against Perry, then that'd be a nice battle...
Oh, and to give respect to the original topic... I voted no, unless the rider is either an official employee of the company in some contracted, professionally agreed upon capacity. (^_^)V
wtf are you yag...you think flatland is some kind of "yo mamma" showdown...im not going to go and dial in some yag routine to showup or showoff to TJ...and youre little wetdream about crashing hang5s and being a bad ass kicking someones ass...keep it to yourself...this whole topic is senseless.....
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cause and effect.
I dont go to contests because im not goin to
spend a few 1000 euros on traveling, hotels, entry fees etc.
its simple.. none of my sponsors can blame me i dont ride comps for them
unless they pay the trips.. do i have to pay the trips to "promote" them?
In that case its up to me if i choose to go to a contest or not..
u know.. i have been to lots of em in the last few years..
and i dont see any reason why i should practice my ass of to get dailled
for contests i have been at for 3 times already..
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i think everyone should shut the **** up, because no one of you would make sacrifices to flatland.
For all the ****heads out there, Flo Sailer did a lot for Flatland in past in Germany and Europe, more than you expect... respect that or go home....
Some comments of ppl. really make me angry...
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MARKETING is what this is all about...
Flo, no disrespect, I understand you want to help, but I don't see it making a change... But, I could be wrong, and props to you for at least trying!
My mom was at a grocery store a last month and this tall guy comes over and starts asking about her outfit. She thought she recognized him, but was not sure and she went back to picking out fruit.
Later in the same store she saw all kinds of people pointing and whispering to each other and realized that it was Micheal Jordan. (he lives in the neighborhood next to my grandparents down in Chapel Hill NC.)
The point is he is a recognizable person, even to my mom, Who could care less about sports.
That is why he, even today, brings in big bucks for large companies. His face sells product. He has worked hard to protect his "image" making sure he is marketable.
And that is why he is still making bank off his "image".
From what I've seen in our sport, too many guys are ready to brag about how great they are, and everyone else sucks... To the point that it is just sad. Look at how blind always attacks my posts. That's fine, I have nothing to prove to a drug addicted, finger paint stained vandal who's claim to fame is posting pictures of himself with wacked out prostitutes on the internet...
When you guys all start to realize that your image matters to be marketable, then maybe guys will start being able to get some real sponsorships.
The biggest reason you don't see tons of sponsorships in flatland is because most good riders don't try to get them.
I was sponsored back in the day, and with the exception of a few of them, they only came to me because I WORKED at getting them, by sending out demo tapes, and actively promoted the companies I rode for. I made tons of calls, and sent out tons of tapes. Today it is much easier to do this, but we still fall short.
I have a friend who announces at the big bmx tv events all over the world. He told me that he makes more money ANNOUNCING than the guys that place lower than 3rd in the contests...
The whole system is messed up, but until we learn to start marketing ourselves, it will just be more of the same.
And it makes me sick to hear guys say, "so and so is a sell out"...
Trust me, back in the 90's guys were not getting $30,000 a year from a bike company to ride flatland. Maybe in the 80's, but by the late 80's all that went away, with the introductions of all the rider started companies that diluted the market to the point where it is hard for any of them to actually make decent money...
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i think everyone should shut the **** up, because no one of you would make sacrifices to flatland.
For all the ****heads out there, Flo Sailer did a lot for Flatland in past in Germany and Europe, more than you expect... respect that or go home....
Some comments of ppl. really make me angry...
yeah we can see that thats why you make generalisations of every poster on global flat and instant judgements ? dont let personal emotions dominate your opinion .
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@FreeEnterprise,
You made excellent points....I feel many have repeated at long lengths in here how certain things work...marketing, self image, etc...
If I didn't know anything about Flatland and its community and made a choice to know or learn in this forum, and lets face it , this is one of the only web sites that attracts all kinds of individuals and this includes sponsors, the industry, and supporters. Well...
After hearing that insult from Mazar, makes me now wonder why the ASC organization should sponsor Flaltand events if this how we are looked upon. My associate did not say it out of insult, unfortunately E-motion took it the wrong way. I may not be governing ASC much longer, since I might be out of the country in the new year. We/ASC also have enough happenings between now and Jan with projects so for you Mazar who is full on emotion try to understand where that was coming from. You can't even tell when people are joking and being serious in here.
Sorry Flo I did not want to mention this, but this does not give me much of a choice.
It takes money to put on jams and comps when its legal, we never charge registration free or anything to the Flatlanders unlike at our other events that are co-sponsored by the heavies in the Action Sports Industry itself. Trust me at this stage, we can hold "Huge Events" but we are about the community first and allowing youth to lead. The flatland events are fully ASC sponsored, UTM space is not free by UTM, nor do they sponsor that event, we put their name on posters out of respect, why?... because they cut the fee for space rental, and we intern also donate to their Bike Share program. We also gave you personal charity Mazar by covering your parking fee when UTM failed at their responsibility to take care of that matter. We are not eager to work with partners if this how they handle issues at their end. I am ASC's main Skateboard and Flatland representative. The ASC Board is mostly BMXers, because they don't discriminate they back all the projects and out of all governance SK8 has the biggest influence and power, this coming year ASC is going to be over powered by a strong Skateboard Board. If you have any understanding how the action sports industry works in the big picture, you'll know that some of the huge comps even in Flatland have Skateboard sponsorship. Most people know about Matt Hoffman due to Tony Hawk. Most Pro Flatlanders have Vans, DC, Globe as their sponsors.
Money is there to support but in the end if the actual community/public support is not there, people are going to go where there is progress and growth for development at all levels. BMX Street, Park, and Dirt have strong industry, its own riding community and public support, Flatland is no where near this. Skateboarding can not be compared, its too big.
I like TJ's comments as well other great riders in here, thank goodness for all the good fruits in here and real face to face in person interaction with other Flatlanders, that ASC organization will care to consider Flatland when addressing BMX as a whole. I and ASC riders love Flatland and its community to let one fruit change our minds. When we support its to encourage riding and its development, there is no personal ASC gains, when its a non-for-profit organization that is volunteer run. I have never been insulted in all the work I've done as a rider or by riding community that I consider as my riding family, that the work/I/ASC would be debased and sexualized as a wet dream. I am not your MOMMA! Woman have a hard enough time in this industry as it is. Thank you for showing me some things are never going to change. On a personal level, where I choose to support or not , in truth, its never a loss, my door is always open to walk away, everyone in ASC I know also feels the same.
Cheers to all the Riders in here who support their events, their industry and community, because with cuts, lack of profits, funding resources, we all should have the common sense that we all need to work together on various levels for the love of riding.
Neela C. Gajjar
Action Sports Coalition President
www.asc-group.org
neela@asc-group.org
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This thread makes people wanna get choked the **** out with their little skinny assed HARD "talking" underground flatlander asses.
WTF?
flatland IS ssacrifice so anyone second guessign any flatlanders intentions can kiss this dick. like you EE_MOTIONALal ass bitch.
Sacrifice is riding knowing you wont get ****...sacrificing is riding knowing no matter how much you work yor still gonna be making sub minimum wage being top guy in that discipline.
I mean who the **** is making this extravagant living that this is even an issue?
We need to be thinkng more about HOW TO GROW THIS sport thanwhat we can bilk from it.
TJ's right.
E-Motion is too bitched in his little pre pubed undeveloped breast of a mylittle pony teenage girl world that he cant even make a point.
I'd say people are fooling themselves if they think anyones making enough monmey off this thing RIGHT NOW to support anyone other than their own FAMILIES.
and its silly to expect less than excellance if you are a top athlete in this discipline.
The way to fix that isnt to take on the only people supporting any flatland as the enemy...or taking on all participants in that discipline as the enemy.
The way TO FIX it is to work together.
****ing sitting in a corner of a lot jerking your little "Im underground" dick E-Motionally pissy expecting nothing is as bad as flatlanders expecting EVERYTHING.
****ing grow up E and Flo.
E = EMOTIONAL bitch
Flo= Flowing whining gaping vagina.
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The sports not worth giving money to.... thats just how it is...
The sport isn't large enough to justify any company dishing out any amount of money towards helping a rider out. I mean really... does anyone here really drink redbull just because martti and terry ride for them? maybe a small handfull.... but not enough to budge the value of their stock... Other companies see and know this... Redbull is just one of the few thats nice enough to care reguardless of our numbers...
For money to come into the sport, we need more participants.... The reason other pro athletes make money is because a large quantity of people play or are interested in those sports... flatland just isn't a spectator sport as we've seen in the past.... so we need to adapt to that and take it as it is... so to compensate for that, we need more people in the sport.... a lot more... as in the number of flatlanders needs to increase in an exponential manner for anything positive to come.... Thats the only way money is going to come in.... If everyone on this board spent an equal amount of time trying to get others into flatland that they do bickering on this board, things could change... but whats the likely hood of that? :rolleyes:
The only way money is going to come in, is if we get larger numbers... A lot of the major companies in flatland really don't seem to take proper interest in drawing in more riders... They do shows at schools and such, but really... wheres the promotions being put on to get people into the sport? We need demo's that are designed around getting people interested in our sport, similar to some of the skateboarding demo's i've seen. Flatland companies aren't reinvesting in themselves to do this at all.. The marketing strategies of flatland companies seems to revolve around selling a new product to people that are already in the sport, and not promoting people to get into the sport... Seriously? what has any flatland company done to try and draw in more riders? where is the focus on this?
Discuss and argue...
im done here...
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This thread makes people wanna get choked the **** out with their little skinny assed HARD "talking" underground flatlander asses.
WTF?
flatland IS ssacrifice so anyone second guessign any flatlanders intentions can kiss this dick. like you EE_MOTIONALal ass bitch.
Sacrifice is riding knowing you wont get ****...sacrificing is riding knowing no matter how much you work yor still gonna be making sub minimum wage being top guy in that discipline.
I mean who the **** is making this extravagant living that this is even an issue?
We need to be thinkng more about HOW TO GROW THIS sport thanwhat we can bilk from it.
TJ's right.
E-Motion is too bitched in his little pre pubed undeveloped breast of a mylittle pony teenage girl world that he cant even make a point.
I'd say people are fooling themselves if they think anyones making enough monmey off this thing RIGHT NOW to support anyone other than their own FAMILIES.
and its silly to expect less than excellance if you are a top athlete in this discipline.
The way to fix that isnt to take on the only people supporting any flatland as the enemy...or taking on all participants in that discipline as the enemy.
The way TO FIX it is to work together.
****ing sitting in a corner of a lot jerking your little "Im underground" dick E-Motionally pissy expecting nothing is as bad as flatlanders expecting EVERYTHING.
****ing grow up E and Flo.
E = EMOTIONAL bitch
Flo= Flowing whining gaping vagina.
haha wow..you love spending time making stupid analogies and sh*t dont you...whatever..talk all the sh*t you want if it makes you feel better
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@FreeEnterprise,
You made excellent points....I feel many have repeated at long lengths in here how certain things work...marketing, self image, etc...
If I didn't know anything about Flatland and its community and made a choice to know or learn in this forum, and lets face it , this is one of the only web sites that attracts all kinds of individuals and this includes sponsors, the industry, and supporters. Well...
After hearing that insult from Mazar, makes me now wonder why the ASC organization should sponsor Flaltand events if this how we are looked upon. My associate did not say it out of insult, unfortunately E-motion took it the wrong way. I may not be governing ASC much longer, since I might be out of the country in the new year. We/ASC also have enough happenings between now and Jan with projects so for you Mazar who is full on emotion try to understand where that was coming from. You can't even tell when people are joking and being serious in here.
Sorry Flo I did not want to mention this, but this does not give me much of a choice.
It takes money to put on jams and comps when its legal, we never charge registration free or anything to the Flatlanders unlike at our other events that are co-sponsored by the heavies in the Action Sports Industry itself. Trust me at this stage, we can hold "Huge Events" but we are about the community first and allowing youth to lead. The flatland events are fully ASC sponsored, UTM space is not free by UTM, nor do they sponsor that event, we put their name on posters out of respect, why?... because they cut the fee for space rental, and we intern also donate to their Bike Share program. We also gave you personal charity Mazar by covering your parking fee when UTM failed at their responsibility to take care of that matter. We are not eager to work with partners if this how they handle issues at their end. I am ASC's main Skateboard and Flatland representative. The ASC Board is mostly BMXers, because they don't discriminate they back all the projects and out of all governance SK8 has the biggest influence and power, this coming year ASC is going to be over powered by a strong Skateboard Board. If you have any understanding how the action sports industry works in the big picture, you'll know that some of the huge comps even in Flatland have Skateboard sponsorship. Most people know about Matt Hoffman due to Tony Hawk. Most Pro Flatlanders have Vans, DC, Globe as their sponsors.
Money is there to support but in the end if the actual community/public support is not there, people are going to go where there is progress and growth for development at all levels. BMX Street, Park, and Dirt have strong industry, its own riding community and public support, Flatland is no where near this. Skateboarding can not be compared, its too big.
I like TJ's comments as well other great riders in here, thank goodness for all the good fruits in here and real face to face in person interaction with other Flatlanders, that ASC organization will care to consider Flatland when addressing BMX as a whole. I and ASC riders love Flatland and its community to let one fruit change our minds. When we support its to encourage riding and its development, there is no personal ASC gains, when its a non-for-profit organization that is volunteer run. I have never been insulted in all the work I've done as a rider or by riding community that I consider as my riding family, that the work/I/ASC would be debased and sexualized as a wet dream. I am not your MOMMA! Woman have a hard enough time in this industry as it is. Thank you for showing me some things are never going to change. On a personal level, where I choose to support or not , in truth, its never a loss, my door is always open to walk away, everyone in ASC I know also feels the same.
Cheers to all the Riders in here who support their events, their industry and community, because with cuts, lack of profits, funding resources, we all should have the common sense that we all need to work together on various levels for the love of riding.
Neela C. Gajjar
Action Sports Coalition President
www.asc-group.org
neela@asc-group.org
that comment was aimed at ultraman zoffy only
but since you already took the time to write a business letter
wow i dont even know what to say.... hahaha....just finding all this sh*t entertaining....ya kill me with some more words...haha..especially tj and jfos
peace
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Since RL banked his $120,000 I doubt any rider has lived off a salary from a flatland company. The ones that are getting by are doing it by working hard to get sponsors outside flatland, putting in the hours getting them exposure in one way or another and not counting on it to last forever.
It's not that riders do not put in the time to deserve the money, it is that their abilities do not bring enough advantage to a sponsor to justify a higher payment commercially.
Riders have never needed to justify themselves by the money they were paid. Not being paid does not mean that skills are not appreciated. Not being paid means that the sponsor has not figured out how to make enough money from your skills.
Again, the smart riders are helping out their sponsors by doing that work for them and catalyzing the value of their own exposure, but with all that work required a sponsorship is no dream life. You may think that a sponsor ship for a decent salary means an end to working and way more time to ride, but probably all it means is a move to being self-employed, and swapping those 8 hours at work for 8 hours of administrating your career to try and keep your exposure high enough to get a salary next year.
There is way more money in flatland now than 10 years ago. Decent contest riders can get a deal on parts and shoes. It might get to be more than that in the long term, but for now, do not expect it.
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This thread makes people wanna get choked the **** out with their little skinny assed HARD "talking" underground flatlander asses.
WTF?
flatland IS ssacrifice so anyone second guessign any flatlanders intentions can kiss this dick. like you EE_MOTIONALal ass bitch.
Sacrifice is riding knowing you wont get ****...sacrificing is riding knowing no matter how much you work yor still gonna be making sub minimum wage being top guy in that discipline.
I mean who the **** is making this extravagant living that this is even an issue?
We need to be thinkng more about HOW TO GROW THIS sport thanwhat we can bilk from it.
TJ's right.
E-Motion is too bitched in his little pre pubed undeveloped breast of a mylittle pony teenage girl world that he cant even make a point.
I'd say people are fooling themselves if they think anyones making enough monmey off this thing RIGHT NOW to support anyone other than their own FAMILIES.
and its silly to expect less than excellance if you are a top athlete in this discipline.
The way to fix that isnt to take on the only people supporting any flatland as the enemy...or taking on all participants in that discipline as the enemy.
The way TO FIX it is to work together.
****ing sitting in a corner of a lot jerking your little "Im underground" dick E-Motionally pissy expecting nothing is as bad as flatlanders expecting EVERYTHING.
****ing grow up E and Flo.
E = EMOTIONAL bitch
Flo= Flowing whining gaping vagina.
haha wow..you love spending time making stupid analogies and **** dont you...whatever..talk all the **** you want if it makes you feel better
It makes me feel better like when your cramps ending bring you relief Captain Underground Hardcore Extreme with your mommys credit card and no rent or whatever defines you.
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no one would be f*cking with you emotional mess unless you had calling and begging for it via your own attempted murderous words.
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no one would be ****ing with you emotional mess unless you had calling and begging for it via your own attempted murderous words.
ya which words are those?
whatever...its not like whatevers being discussed here makes a difference anyways
plus im not asking for **** for riding my bike..so wtf are u talking about...once again i just find it sad that some **** celebrity singer gets to make a good living and more and flatlanders dont get ****...but nah...lets keep it that way right?
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Well Mazar are you kidding me? Your quoting and response did not jell. Thats not a business letter that's my usual way of addressing issues. I do not see the point in Putting Down Riders to get a point across, or the need to use F.U.C.K, S.H.I.T ...etc...I hope most realize how we all need to work together and realities this community faces. Flatland support in North America isn't the greatest. A Flatlander should be representing Flatland not a Skateboarder.
Imagine with all the writing and energy in here if the Flatlanders in the community apart from the industry the Pros, and other related organizations place their power into organizing jams, comps, judging, advocating, better policies..etc..how far things could go, whats funny, it does not take many people to create better overall riding development.
Neela C Gajjar
Action Sports Coalition President
www.asc-group
neela@asc-group.org
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Wow! It's like Sean McKinney vs. Scott Powell all over again! Not sure who E-Motion is or what he's got up his sleeve, but if he's claiming he can go trick for trick against Perry, then that'd be a nice battle...
Oh, and to give respect to the original topic... I voted no, unless the rider is either an official employee of the company in some contracted, professionally agreed upon capacity. (^_^)V
I wasn't trying to show him up or anything, I was just making the point that calling out riders because of their ability is wrong and has no bearing on the subject. How that got lost on some people is beyond me. :huh:
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we need a general industry promotional like MILK had...
maybe we can get cows like those ChikFilet cows to sponsor flatland.
I seriously bet if we sent to DVD's with attached vendors for flatland promotion to 50million plus earning companies you get quite a bit to stick. I doubt anyones has realy had large scale flatand promotion strictly targeting C level Promotions positions within upper earners here in the US or anywhere.
I assume we just work them one at a time and dont realy have any campagne happen.
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for insance this could have been 928th letter to Mr. Dobbalina insstead of my 928th post on a forum where flatlanders are imploding on themselves.
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I think some pro riders need to just start sending off videos to companies that target young people. Even clothing brands. I mean it worked for redbull big time getting involved in extreme sports without going the "XTREMEE MOUNTAIN DEW" route.
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wow...everyones been kind of polite and civil to me and ive been an asshole for two pages...if not the whole time ive been on this forum...i dont know...as redundant as it sounds to aplogise after talking **** yet again...im sorry
carry on with your discussion
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hello world!!!! I agree with you Flo, I think that even if the money you'll recieve it's just a symbol, it's something you deserve, not just because you represent the company, you're also an assistant and you go to the contest sometimes even with your own money, i'm not being sponsored right now but I'd like to be someday, we're not trying to live out of that but every pro rider is a pro and as a pro you need some motivation not just parts, there are contests every month all over the world, and some help sometimes is not bad, you don't need a video game so you can say that you have all you want from your sport, all we want is just some respect, not just the street riders can have bonuses
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I think some pro riders need to just start sending off videos to companies that target young people. Even clothing brands. I mean it worked for redbull big time getting involved in extreme sports without going the "XTREMEE MOUNTAIN DEW" route.
i mentioned something like that earlier but everyone is too busy hatin on each other...it sounds like a good idea to get sponsors like that
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I think some pro riders need to just start sending off videos to companies that target young people. Even clothing brands. I mean it worked for redbull big time getting involved in extreme sports without going the "XTREMEE MOUNTAIN DEW" route.
i mentioned something like that earlier but everyone is too busy hatin on each other...it sounds like a good idea to get sponsors like that
I agree with Diego, there's too much hatin on each other going on. These topics are sometimes like food. It all looks nice and presentable at the start but always ends up in the sewer. Flo had a good debatable topic here and its gone to the crapper.
Back to topic. While there is two sides of this issue to look at, Flo has sacrificed his sponsorship in the hope of benefitting all pro riders with a salary, even if its small. He has set a precedent in the hope pro flatlanders can have some monetary benefits as well as product.
While this seems a harsh idea for flat companies with little money, it would be a very good idea for non bike companies with plenty of money to pay flatlanders a salary. I think pro flatlanders need to look for opportunities to promote flat, like Flo did starring in a music video riding flat.
There is so many different avenues, it just needs some hard work to make a difference. With more exposure, big companies like clothing and beverage companies I mentioned at the start of the thread may pay these pros money because they see this exposure as beneficial to them. Its a win win situation.
What goes around comes around. If you put in the hard work, you can get rewarded. Look at Terry Adams.
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I don't see how this is a protest Flo? To be honest KHE are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off without you. They can easily replace you with somebody who is:
1) better at riding
2) more grateful of their support
3) better able to promote the brand
4) who travels to contests and competes on a regular basis
This isn't a protest. This is a child throwing the toys out of his pram. Don't try and make it into more than what it is.
I do agree that the pro riders should get paid. You quitting is NOT a protest though. Don't flatter yourself - KHE don't need you!
Paul
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:beer: ^ ^
istead of just posting on the page, read the whole thread first folks, it's been said, and pay attention to the guys that are sponsored riders, and the guys sponsoring riders. starting to sound like age difference creeping in here.....
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hey flo simon o'brien gets not a cent from any company so why should you?grow the f*ck up!
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stewart simon obrien gets some money for every frame sold but not a salary ^^
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i think it's only fair to clarify who we are talking about? flo... ?
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I don't see how this is a protest Flo? To be honest KHE are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off without you. They can easily replace you with somebody who is:
1) better at riding
2) more grateful of their support
3) better able to promote the brand
4) who travels to contests and competes on a regular basis
This isn't a protest. This is a child throwing the toys out of his pram. Don't try and make it into more than what it is.
I do agree that the pro riders should get paid. You quitting is NOT a protest though. Don't flatter yourself - KHE don't need you!
Paul
OK, Flo is not getting what he wants/needs out of his relationship with the company, and he's decided that he'd be better off without them. How is that like a child making a fit? It's strictly business.
You people talk like KHE is some godly being and that people should get on their knees to thank them for the privilege of possessing their parts.
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i just read back over the first post you said
" want to show that the team riders are the backbone of a company"
thats just not true, the backbone of the company are the guys welding the frames and machining the parts and the guys making sure they get sold. welcome to reality.
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hey flo simon o'brien gets not a cent from any company so why should you?grow the **** up!
Maybe because he runs one of the best contest series in the world next to the KOG and has done more to rep KHE than even Simon O Brien has St Martin?
I mean between all the footage of the BIDC videos, there's more footage of people riding KHEs than all of the videos Simons been in riding a St Martin.
While he's not repping KHE in the traditional sense, he's providing an outlet for people to ride their KHEs in a competetive well covered and promoted atmosphere that introduces more people to the sport than a lone video spot.
Just a thought.
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at flat paul & stewart:
please read first what iīve said in this thread sites before. thank you.
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at flat paul & stewart:
please read first what iīve said in this thread sites before. thank you.
Sorry dude... welcome to the internet.... People have selective reading... this thread is 10 pages long.... no ones going to read anything on the first 3 pages... people are just jumping in and saying whatever now...
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Flo,
I have read all that you have written. I just don't buy into what you are saying though. You say it's not about you and I accept that. I just wanted to stress that your efforts are like tears in the rain. That's all.
I don't see how this is a protest Flo? To be honest KHE are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better off without you. They can easily replace you with somebody who is:
1) better at riding
2) more grateful of their support
3) better able to promote the brand
4) who travels to contests and competes on a regular basis
This isn't a protest. This is a child throwing the toys out of his pram. Don't try and make it into more than what it is.
I do agree that the pro riders should get paid. You quitting is NOT a protest though. Don't flatter yourself - KHE don't need you!
Paul
Flo is not getting what he wants/needs out of his relationship with the company, and he's decided that he'd be better off without them. How is that like a child making a fit? It's strictly business.
You people talk like KHE is some godly being and that people should get on their knees to thank them for the privilege of possessing their parts.
Wrong. It is a protest. I think that you ought to read the original post. :rolleyes:
It's exactly like a child making a fit. I've got better things to do than sit here and turn words to support that statement though...
I don't see KHE as some 'godlike' being and Stewart definitely doesn't either!
Simon O'Brien stacks shelves in a supermarket. I think that Flo should appreciate his position at KHE. If he did then he would understand that his 'protest' will make little difference.
That's it for this month. Don't bother replying to my post. . .
at flat paul & stewart:
please read first what iīve said in this thread sites before. thank you.
Sorry dude... welcome to the internet.... People have selective reading... this thread is 10 pages long.... no ones going to read anything on the first 3 pages... people are just jumping in and saying whatever now...
That's the most intelligent thing that anyone has ever said on this forum!
i think it's only fair to clarify who we are talking about? flo... ?
Exactly!
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at flat paul & stewart:
please read first what iīve said in this thread sites before. thank you.
Sorry dude... welcome to the internet.... People have selective reading... this thread is 10 pages long.... no ones going to read anything on the first 3 pages... people are just jumping in and saying whatever now...
That's the most intelligent thing that anyone has ever said on this forum!
Yes, john goodman couldn't have said it better...
"your out of your element donnie, your like a child walking in on the middle of a movie, you have no frame of reference"
People are just jumping in, with no recollection of whats goin on... no care in the world to read the first page... this threads turned into a huge turd-slinging contest from what I can tell..
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well in better news i just got sponcered by a car wash and window tinting company,funny thing is dont have a car.
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lol :beer:
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well in better news i just got sponcered by a car wash and window tinting company,funny thing is dont have a car.
hey cris , mtv called , and said they want to air you in next season's pimp my ride.
i guess xibit will be off to the west coast with someone elses car............
dam man!!!!!!
they could have hooked ya up bro!!!!!!!!!!
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
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please stop off topic comments. that would be great!
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close? :rolleyes:
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look,
i did not go to khe and said i want money...my deal was ok. i know that iīm not at the ultra top level..like dez metioned so niceley...but thats not my main misson...i see myself organizing etc...(battle in da club tour, fac-agency and more)...and yes i got a lot of attention outside of bmx scene and have coverage...so khe knows that and thats one reason why they supported me..not because im the contest monster...
i hope that is clear now...i dont want to repead myself at every new site in this tread---
and be shure i worked my ass off the whole day for flatland and bmx and others not just myself...
i did this because i think riders in the world team should get money
and their should be a sponsoring system with carrots and sticks..based on
results in events
media coverage
ideas for products
and some more
and there are 20 people working at khe and get money for their work. why pro world team riders should not get money? they are the most important part for the image and the sells...this is fact if khe or any other company did not agree please stop sponsoring riders and you will see what will happen.
yes, itīs right that if more pro riders would make some noise it could change something...
i made a lot of proposals to khe the past year for that issue but i did not get clear answers or feedback.
i think itīs not good for the team athmosphere that one riders knows nothing about other riders deal and that there is no clear system of sponsoring.
This won't happen unless riders come together and form a union. When I said that you quitting as a protest will change nothing this is what I meant. Unless all of the riders at KHE pull together then nothing will happen. It's not just you that's replacable it's Jesse too and all of the other guys - that's if you act separately. Altogether though - That would be a different story. . .
Don't worry about what Dez is saying. We don't all ride for the same reasons.
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at flat paul,
yes i know that...but riders are afraid of loosing a sponsorship even they are not lucky with it or they know that something is wrong.
but perhaps my "action" shows that it could be possible to change something and to stay together would be better. thats true.
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I propose KHE takes the money spent on giving you free bike parts and use that annual total amount to pay riders higher salaries. That way this wouldn't be a total waste of time.
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Okay, some erased my last post. I still dont know who this guy is or what he does. My post is not off topic, I want to know who the f*ck you are, and what you do. Its important for me to understand why the f*ck you're whining about a riding salary. Otherwise, go get a job and grow up!
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at joe...if you have read other sites of this thread you would have known that not i whanted a salary for myself however for riders in the world team and that the main issue is to have a clean and transparent sponsoringsystem.
to my person visit www.fac-agency.de (http://www.fac-agency.de) or www.bidc.de (http://www.bidc.de) both things i run...for eg...or http://www.endorphinum.de/betasway/0710/0710.html (http://www.endorphinum.de/betasway/0710/0710.html) and go to page 90 .....
but that isīnt to important. important would be that something changes in the way khe and some others see their teamriders...as employees please!
so far again
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[url]http://www.endorphinum.de/betasway/0710/0710.html[/url] ([url]http://www.endorphinum.de/betasway/0710/0710.html[/url]) and go to page 90 .....
LOL Flo was ist mit deiner Hose los?
(http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1665/flodbj8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Are you Horny? ^_^
Sorry fpr the off-topic post :wacko: :wacko:
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I propose KHE takes the money spent on giving you free bike parts and use that annual total amount to pay riders higher salaries. That way this wouldn't be a total waste of time.
ive got a better idea... i think KHE should take all the free parts and just give them to someone else. :wacko:
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They did...
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I propose KHE takes the money spent on giving you free bike parts and use that annual total amount to pay riders higher salaries. That way this wouldn't be a total waste of time.
ive got a better idea... i think KHE should take all the free parts and just give them to someone else. :wacko:
I just think if you're not competing, you shouldn't be sponsered unless someone is feeling VERY generous.
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I think...I think the company would be paying you if they could and they thought it was worth it..if not arent we kidding ourselves that sponsored PAYED riders actually help promote their product?
Free markets decide what will happen not every person with a whim.
Its not like they are laughing at the savings they are getting by not paying you.
If every flatlander on Earth went out on "strike"..how much would it REALY change..if you thikn it wont change much to THEIR profitability then you might really have an answer to how genedrous these companies are being.
I think riders should get payed but we have to actuallya arive at point B which is on us before we start trying to force change they cant happen.
Were at a very small drinking well with lots of heads.
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point b? itīs not that khe has a turnover about 100.000 euros..no they play in a much higher category....much higher...
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FLO...You gonna close this poll or what?! Anyway I posted some but aimed for delete. Actions louder Baby, you know that's where its at, Mr Hard Working Behind the scenes PRO Constructor.
Well Mazar, nice apology, and like a lady, well taken. Rider I rarely get upset by any jibber jabber.
Anyway I am going call you Mr Caccius Clay on the pedal, now I be wantin' you go faster than any car chase by the Steve McQueen's of this world passing a bullit on those tricks. Talk the talk and I'm a gonna make you walk...that goes for anyone including myself. I've seen you progress over 3 years and that's cool thing. It's great to see all riders reach a higher goal/development in their life but you don't stop... (100% - 81.3...humm)
I have been in discussion with UTM but at same time looking into higher ground for space. You all should know me by now, I can't bear to make many posts, I also end up editting cuz type hurts ma eyes. I'll start a separate one soon, once I take care of other matters. There is too much to keep up with in here let alone in ASC.
What I really need from Ontario Riders is to think about Your FLATLAND Event. I am picky about nonsense space sometimes more so than most riders in here. There is so little time, ASC wants this to be an "indefinite Comp-adaptive with resuse" format meaning you all can test it out and play with set up, it will not matter if it donesn't work out... fall into a jam format but first challenge yourselves.
So FLO and all you experts in here how would you all like to see innovations at whatever level brought towards Flatland, just think about it for now. I am going to be putting up a poster soon, and as said start a new thread...Neela
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"The man is a little weird, okay...but he got some good ideas, so leave him be!" -Mr. T
This one goes out to FLO.
HA! But a taste of an ASC Poster that is coming soon.
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First rule of business:
A company needs to grow
Second rule of business:
Make profit to realize growth
Its been said many times before...a flat company probably doesnt have the money to support riders like Flo wants it. Only perhaps if they cut the amount of riders to two or three. Yes KHE makes profit out of their business, but that money is to make the company grow not to spoil their riders with.
I do agree, companies should pay for travelling and contest fees. Riding as a day time job, thats a utopia. Thats only for the 5 people that are on top, and considering not one rider stays with the best for longer than a few years I cant imagine the need to persuit being a pro flatlander for living. There are probably easier ways to earn money and ride still as much.
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First rule of business:
A company needs to grow
not true, its perfectly normal for companies to reach a balance point where increasing in size would not be beneficial.
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business growth does not necessarily mean becoming bigger in size for a company. It also means exploring new terrain to gain profit, developing a wider range of products...etc.
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khe has grown the last decade...
if u take only the coplete bike segment:
they sell 15.000 complete bikes a year...!!
they reached a point where there could be more possible in sponsoring and become more professionel in it...
thats it.
so.........happy new year to everybody! hoppe 08 is going to be a great year for flatland!
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khe has grown the last decade...
if u take only the coplete bike segment:
they sell 15.000 complete bikes a year...!!
they reached a point where there could be more possible in sponsoring and become more professionel in it...
thats it.
so.........happy new year to everybody! hoppe 08 is going to be a great year for flatland!
happy new year to you!
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LIFTS LEG
PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
ONE LEGGED SALUTE AND......
a happy new years to ya'll
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khe has grown the last decade...
if u take only the coplete bike segment:
they sell 15.000 complete bikes a year...!!
they reached a point where there could be more possible in sponsoring and become more professionel in it...
thats it.
I wonder how much of that money went into the production and design of fifty million signature frames?
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perhaps khe bosses will tell you..
here in this thread..soon........
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perhaps khe bosses will tell you..
here in this thread..soon........
flo,
this is getting really old man!
i think the majority of all of us that ride,(maybe the guys i ride or speak too) just want to go out , and ride our bikes, have fun, progress, and live life to the fullest, without any 2nd thoughts of quiting , or giving up. i guess thats the 1 main reason i ve been riding for as long as i have!
i once had to make the decision to quit my job, and barely make it to ride my bike, and thats the road i took, and will never look back , and think it was a bad idea( and this was from making $70k usd a year)
and to be honest bro , and i m not ripping on you when i say this.............
but you where not thier 1st canidate to put on the team, i know 2 great guys, 1 of witch i ride with , or socialize on a normal basis was thier 1st pick ,and he turned them down , because he wanted to ride his bike, and just enjoy riding and not worry about all the corporate b.s.(those where his specific words, then hung up on them)
i really think what you did was a good move, but i dont think it was enough to make a impact. i do enjoy watching you ride, but come on man , this has to end somewhere- right?
can i ask you where you want to take this now?
thanks for your time man.
tim
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can we please end this thread now? I still dont know who this guy is.....and I still dont own a KHE....
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can we please end this thread now? I still dont know who this guy is.....and I still dont own a KHE....
Well said Freddie Mercury .
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khe has grown the last decade...
if u take only the coplete bike segment:
they sell 15.000 complete bikes a year...!!
they reached a point where there could be more possible in sponsoring and become more professionel in it...
thats it.
so.........happy new year to everybody! hoppe 08 is going to be a great year for flatland!
I'm in the bike industry. 15,000 bikes is good but not that unreal. Do you think that as a rider you should be paid more than the guys who are actually running the business end?
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"the guys who are actually running the business end?"
Maybe Flo is wanting to redefine who is considered running the business end. Some pro Riders do have more roles than one. They design parts, shoes, some contribute in marketing. Look at Travis Collier does all the logo/image for MacNeil. Flo I don't know if the events stuff you do is within or separate from KHE's planning? If a pro is involved all year around in a company on various levels and only gets pay from what in defined in their sponsorship contract, then policies or contracts from time to time should be changed. That would have to be one of those evaluated issues that should be placed and handled according to Pro rider contribution. One should be paid
only if they do and not all pros do.
Again there seems to be so many grey areas, and a blur who is doing what for a company. Lets face it, the marketing of Flatland has been so poor compared to other forms of BMX. Does one fire that person or cut their pay, or bring in someone and this person happens to be a pro with ideas to assist, but lets not pay him in this area since he is limited by contract. We know many pros/Riders contribute more ways than one or they would not have the skills to start/create the "business end": SUNDAY, BAD Thing...etc...and company related events. Events too can fall under marketing. Individual contracts should be redefined.
Or subcontracts within their sponsorship term and policy.
All this would depend on individual long term contribution/progression in a company.
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This is getting out of control.