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English => Parts & Bikes => Topic started by: aliasdck on August 17, 2020, 02:13:26 AM

Title: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on August 17, 2020, 02:13:26 AM
My current rear wheel is 15-20 years old. It is a 3/8" nankai technolite freecoaster (48H), chrome odyssey hazard lite rim, and I believe just generic 14g spokes with 3x lacing pattern. The chrome on the rim is chipping, it's due for a rebuild soon and the wheel is heavy by today's standards so I'm starting to save up for a whole new wheel that I will have flatlandfuel build. I have never done this before instead I've always got my wheels either second hand or already prebuilt - I've never selected the parts individually myself. So while I am saving the money needed I am doing research on what I want in the meantime.


I'm curious if anyone has any advice or recommendations. Here is what I'm thinking so far:


Far East Cycles Freecoaster (36H)
GSport Birdcage Rim
14g double butted spokes
Brass nipples
Probably 3x lacing


I'm trying to build a light but still decently strong wheel. I only ride flatland, no street or park riding. I also use brakes so need a rim with enough surface area for the pads. A few questions:


1) If I have the money, is there any reason not to upgrade the axle/driver to titanium? Like, have people had any problems with the freecoaster working properly when upgraded? Anything special I need to consider with the titanium upgrade.


2) I'll probably go with 14mm since my dropouts are 14mm but my current setup uses a 3/8 axle with adapters and I like this because the adapter protects the threads of axle from damage when the integrated chain tensioner bolt tightens down on it. I'm worried that without anything to protect the 14mm axle, that the integrated chain tensioner bolt will start to damage the axle threads. Or is there another way to protect the threads? Or is the damage minimal and of little concern?


3) Would you recommend anything different, like a different rim, spokes, freecoaster, 48H instead of 36H, etc?




Thank you very much for any input you can provide!

Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on August 17, 2020, 04:19:14 AM
My current rear wheel is 15-20 years old. It is a 3/8" nankai technolite freecoaster (48H), chrome odyssey hazard lite rim, and I believe just generic 14g spokes with 3x lacing pattern. The chrome on the rim is chipping, it's due for a rebuild soon and the wheel is heavy by today's standards so I'm starting to save up for a whole new wheel that I will have flatlandfuel build. I have never done this before instead I've always got my wheels either second hand or already prebuilt - I've never selected the parts individually myself. So while I am saving the money needed I am doing research on what I want in the meantime.


I'm curious if anyone has any advice or recommendations. Here is what I'm thinking so far:


Far East Cycles Freecoaster (36H)
GSport Birdcage Rim
14g double butted spokes
Brass nipples
Probably 3x lacing


I'm trying to build a light but still decently strong wheel. I only ride flatland, no street or park riding. I also use brakes so need a rim with enough surface area for the pads. A few questions:


1) If I have the money, is there any reason not to upgrade the axle/driver to titanium? Like, have people had any problems with the freecoaster working properly when upgraded? Anything special I need to consider with the titanium upgrade.


2) I'll probably go with 14mm since my dropouts are 14mm but my current setup uses a 3/8 axle with adapters and I like this because the adapter protects the threads of axle from damage when the integrated chain tensioner bolt tightens down on it. I'm worried that without anything to protect the 14mm axle, that the integrated chain tensioner bolt will start to damage the axle threads. Or is there another way to protect the threads? Or is the damage minimal and of little concern?


3) Would you recommend anything different, like a different rim, spokes, freecoaster, 48H instead of 36H, etc?




Thank you very much for any input you can provide!
Ti FEC coaster needs additional space. Dub has a video about it if you google it. I have regular FEC coaster and its great.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: DaddyCool on August 17, 2020, 03:03:20 PM
Hi aliasdck,
1. Sorry no experience with it.2. I use 14 mm axles for about 20 years now and don't like 3/8". The problem with the integrated chain tensioners is there. My (steel) threads are a little damaged. Maybe I will have trouble when I want to remove the cone nuts. Some guy here on GF posted a video in another thread where it is shown how to modify (grind, cut...) an axle adapter to use it as a small plate that you can put between the screw and you axle to protect the threads. I did not try it but is sound good. In every case there are options and this should not prevent you from buying a 14 mm axle.
3. I still use 48 H and like it, but the availability of parts is so bad that maybe it is not a good idea. I would definitely use double butted spokes (2 - 1.8 - 2 is no problem, 2 - 1.5 - 2 are a little more flexible but if you tighten them a little more I would say it work but have them only used 48 H wheels) and I would also recommend aluminium nipples. I never had any issue with them and they are much lighter. With G-Sport rims you cannot be so wrong. I never tried the FEC hub. I personally find it critical that it has only two pawls where almost every cassette hub has three or more. I wonder how long this can work, but I have not heard anything bad about the FEC hub so far. For a backwheel I typically use 3-cross-lacing and never had problems.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on August 17, 2020, 08:37:25 PM
Thank you Daddycool, your advice is always so thorough, helpful and thus is greatly appreciated. I think I remember the post you are talking about (the one about protecting the axle from the integrated chain tensioner) I had just forgotten about it until you mentioned it. I will find it and reread it. Thanks again!

Quote from: Mambocoyboy
Ti FEC coaster needs additional space. Dub has a video about it if you google it. I have regular FEC coaster and its great.
Thank you Mamboycowboy, I think I know which videos you are talking about and I will give them a watch.


👍






I'm not sure if I am going to bother with upgrading the axle/driver to titanium yet. Seems like a very expensive way just to loose a little weight (It's $170 USD for the upgrade and only 80 grams lighter on the 14mm version). On the other hand, this weight is located near the end of the bike so it may make a noticeable impact for front wheel tricks when the rear of the bike is whipping around or just acting as a counter balance. I'll have to give it some more thought and hopefully somebody who has used it comes along - I don't think I will risk the upgrade unless somebody already has and says it worked well for them.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: DaddyCool on August 17, 2020, 11:26:35 PM
Thank you! I think we have a similar understanding of many things, that is why we have a good basis for discussions. I always enjoy your posts because you have clear thoughts and precise questions/remarks.
I would not say that 80 g do not play a role, but one should not forget here that the steel version is also very light and your whole backwheel will be much lighter anyway! So I would start with the steel version. You can also save weight with pegs, tires, tubes for example and this is much cheaper.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on August 18, 2020, 01:38:32 AM
Thank you! I think we have a similar understanding of many things, that is why we have a good basis for discussions. I always enjoy your posts because you have clear thoughts and precise questions/remarks.
I would not say that 80 g do not play a role, but one should not forget here that the steel version is also very light and your whole backwheel will be much lighter anyway! So I would start with the steel version. You can also save weight with pegs, tires, tubes for example and this is much cheaper.
Tires, tubes, and rims indeed.  Realized the Fuego 2.3 tires on my flybikes street complete weigh 29.9 ounces each! Am replacing them with 1.95 primo e comets which weigh 13 ounces each...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on August 19, 2020, 04:38:22 AM
Yes I bought new lighter pegs, tires and tubes a few weeks ago but didn't get around to installing them until just a few minutes ago. My bike lost decent amount of weight with this upgrade, but a big part of that is going from frequency G tires to bob hex tires which are very light, but I'm not sure how I will like them yet. Tomorrow morning I give them a test ride, so I might go back to the frequency G if I don't like them.

According to my scale bike now weighs about 24.6 lbs (11.2 kg). Not super  light but much better then when I first got back into riding over a year and a half ago, back then it was closer to 29 lbs (13.2 kg) if memory serves me right.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on August 19, 2020, 08:19:00 AM
Yes I bought new lighter pegs, tires and tubes a few weeks ago but didn't get around to installing them until just a few minutes ago. My bike lost decent amount of weight with this upgrade, but a big part of that is going from frequency G tires to bob hex tires which are very light, but I'm not sure how I will like them yet. Tomorrow morning I give them a test ride, so I might go back to the frequency G if I don't like them.

According to my scale bike now weighs about 24.6 lbs (11.2 kg). Not super  light but much better then when I first got back into riding over a year and a half ago, back then it was closer to 29 lbs (13.2 kg) if memory serves me right.
I have the box hex to. Waiting on my new wheels to try them out...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on February 28, 2021, 12:01:36 AM
I am finally done saving for this and so I'm about to purchase a new wheelset. I still think I am going to go with 14mm FEC freecoaster probably steel not titanium but doing some last minute research on all available coasters before deciding. I'm open to any suggestions. Gonna go with either the GSport Birdcage or Sun Envy rims.

I also still need to pick out a good lightweight reliable front hub, any suggestions considering what's currently available from flatlandfuel?
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on February 28, 2021, 12:57:24 AM
I am finally done saving for this and so I'm about to purchase a new wheelset. I still think I am going to go with 14mm FEC freecoaster probably steel not titanium but doing some last minute research on all available coasters before deciding. I'm open to any suggestions. Gonna go with either the GSport Birdcage or Sun Envy rims.

I also still need to pick out a good lightweight reliable front hub, any suggestions considering what's currently available from flatlandfuel?
Update. I am riding both steel and ti fc on my bikes. Riding the ti without additional spacer with no issues. I like light front hubs. Have alienation tinman. Coolest looking imo is armour bikes grenade front hub, also very light yet likely also very durable.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on February 28, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
Thanks for the update mambocowboy!

That grenade hub looks like a great option, I may decide to go with it. I have also been considering getting an FEC front hub, kinda just to 'match' the FEC freecoaster on the rear. The regular FEC front hub looks decent enough but then there is also the carbon fiber version which is very light (140g), I'm just not sure yet if a carbon fiber shell hub is a good idea as a flatland hub. Been searching around to see if I can find any reviews. Anyone here use it and have anything to say about it?
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: out~riding on February 28, 2021, 07:25:49 PM
There is really no big advantage going with the TI driver. You can loose more weight for cheaper on other parts.
I use Khe freecoasters and haven't had any major issue with them, even the aluminum axle has held up for years.

There are lighter rims, but you can't go wrong with G-Sport. I also have them, they are super strong and stiff.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: FlatSociety on March 01, 2021, 01:06:58 PM
Thanks for the update mambocowboy!

That grenade hub looks like a great option, I may decide to go with it. I have also been considering getting an FEC front hub, kinda just to 'match' the FEC freecoaster on the rear. The regular FEC front hub looks decent enough but then there is also the carbon fiber version which is very light (140g), I'm just not sure yet if a carbon fiber shell hub is a good idea as a flatland hub. Been searching around to see if I can find any reviews. Anyone here use it and have anything to say about it?

Hi Aliasdck, I was reading your thread & I have the Armour F-1 Grenade Hub available in my Shop. I currently run it on my bike. I also have Sun Envy Rims in stock as well. If there's anything I can help you with, don't hesitate to ask. My Shop is here: http://www.flatsocietybmx.com (http://www.flatsocietybmx.com)
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on March 01, 2021, 06:21:15 PM
Thank you FlatSociety, it's been awhile since I've checked out your site. It's looking great. I have already made plans to get the new wheels through flatlandfuel. There are some additional things I'll need soon, like tires and pegs etc so I'll probably be placing an order on your site sometime soon.


It's nice to have more then one flatland specific shop to choose from. I love flatlandfuel but it's always nice to have more options. Plus you seem to carry some different things which is always nice.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: mal on March 01, 2021, 11:12:40 PM
envy rims,good.
khe freecoasters,good.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on March 14, 2021, 02:05:51 AM
What about the sun envy lite rim? Like 60-70g lighter at only 330g (!) , these weren't available on FF when I was doing research before but just looked today and they are there again now. So I might consider the lite version now too... hmm... any comments on these? I still haven't pulled the trigger on the order but will be doing so any day now. Only decision I still need to make is which rims, considering either 1)sun envy 2)sun envy lite 3)g-sport birdcage

Sorry to keep bugging everyone but thanks for all the advice
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on March 14, 2021, 02:55:59 AM
What about the sun envy lite rim? Like 60-70g lighter at only 330g (!) , these weren't available on FF when I was doing research before but just looked today and they are there again now. So I might consider the lite version now too... hmm... any comments on these? I still haven't pulled the trigger on the order but will be doing so any day now. Only decision I still need to make is which rims, considering either 1)sun envy 2)sun envy lite 3)g-sport birdcage

Sorry to keep bugging everyone but thanks for all the advice
I have a sun envy lite with double butted spokes built by flatlandfuel with no issues.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on March 14, 2021, 06:19:33 PM
Sun Envy are amazing rims just keep the spokes nice and tight. Haven't tried the Lite version though. I think Tyler Gilliard was riding it on the front and killing it with no issues
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on March 14, 2021, 10:45:26 PM
Thank you very much guys, I'm gonna give it a few more days of thought and researching around then decide and  place the order. Cant wait!
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: FlatSociety on March 15, 2021, 11:51:21 AM
If you haven't ordered or built your wheels yet, you may also consider Alienation Malice Rims. They are only 325 Grams & are made of a proprietary 6069 Alum & they weigh in at 325 Grams (11.5oz) which in my opinion is the best strength to weight ratio for any rims out there. They are just slightly lighter than the Envy Lite Rims, but also stronger. If you're interested, hmu. BTW, they're also available in Chrome.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: razorlab on March 15, 2021, 05:15:42 PM
I recently built up my own set of custom wheels. I hadn't built a wheel in over 20 years and everything came out just fine.

They are really light, while still being decently strong. I'm super happy with them so far, however, I am no pro rider. I like running my spokes pretty tight and have had no issues so far. Besides the normal break-in re-true, I have had no issues with things loosening up or losing true.

Front:
Alienation Malice Rim
Ares Hub
Sapim double butted spokes
Sapim alum nipples
1.6 lbs

Rear:
Alienation Deviant Rim
Ezra Hub
Sapim double butted spokes
Sapim alum nipples
2.3 lbs
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on March 15, 2021, 07:46:31 PM
If you haven't ordered or built your wheels yet, you may also consider Alienation Malice Rims. They are only 325 Grams & are made of a proprietary 6069 Alum & they weigh in at 325 Grams (11.5oz) which in my opinion is the best strength to weight ratio for any rims out there. They are just slightly lighter than the Envy Lite Rims, but also stronger. If you're interested, hmu. BTW, they're also available in Chrome.
Malice is a great rim. I have one in chrome which looks super dope.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: FlatSociety on March 16, 2021, 10:32:09 AM
I love mine as well
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 04, 2021, 11:53:28 PM
New wheelset arrived yesterday. I'm happy with how they turned out. New rear wheel alone is over 2lbs lighter then the old one, part of this is because I'm going from frequency g with thick tube to area a-class with thinner tube, but the lighter hub+spokes+rims is where the majority of weight loss comes from.

Thank you everyone for all the help and advice 👍 I'm letting the tires stretch for a few days by slowly increasing pressure, so I won't be giving them their first try for a 2-3 days.


(https://i.imgur.com/AmfsuEp.jpg)
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on April 05, 2021, 12:52:54 AM
New wheelset arrived yesterday. I'm happy with how they turned out. New rear wheel alone is over 2lbs lighter then the old one, part of this is because I'm going from frequency g with thick tube to area a-class with thinner tube, but the lighter hub+spokes+rims is where the majority of weight loss comes from.

Thank you everyone for all the help and advice 👍 I'm letting the tires stretch for a few days by slowly increasing pressure, so I won't be giving them their first try for a 2-3 days.


(https://i.imgur.com/AmfsuEp.jpg)
I love my Ares tires. Better than Box imo.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 05, 2021, 03:31:25 AM
New wheelset arrived yesterday. I'm happy with how they turned out. New rear wheel alone is over 2lbs lighter then the old one, part of this is because I'm going from frequency g with thick tube to area a-class with thinner tube, but the lighter hub+spokes+rims is where the majority of weight loss comes from.

Thank you everyone for all the help and advice 👍 I'm letting the tires stretch for a few days by slowly increasing pressure, so I won't be giving them their first try for a 2-3 days.


(https://i.imgur.com/AmfsuEp.jpg)



Nonsense that’s just Pat reducing the liability he bears from the tires blowing up. Air em up and ride it same day
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 05, 2021, 03:32:23 AM
They look great tho man mad props on the new wheel set. Curious to see how those “lite” version rims hold up
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 05, 2021, 03:47:21 AM
Nonsense that’s just Pat reducing the liability he bears from the tires blowing up. Air em up and ride it same day

That may very well be the case but so far every a class I've over owned failed from a blowout due to failure of the bead. One immediately after inflating, the second 15 minutes after inflating during a hang 5 (scary!) the third randomly blew over night after having been fine and stable at the same pressure for a few weeks and I think I may have even had a fourth that made it for awhile too but can't remember now. All of these were on wider then recommended rims (hazard lites) and admittedly a few psi higher then I should have gone, so I consider these failures mostly my fault.

But... I figured trying to ease them into near their rated psi can't hurt plus I'm not ready to switch yet anyways (lazy and dreading the adjustment to new tires period). I put 85 psi into them this morning, now up to 95 psi and then I'll go to 105 before bed. Tomorrow 115 then they day after 120 which is when I'm planning to install them and test em out. Overkill, I know, but i wasn't planning on installing them until then anyways.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 05, 2021, 03:57:06 AM
They look great tho man mad props on the new wheel set. Curious to see how those “lite” version rims hold up

Thank you. I weigh about 180 lbs for and never really do anything hard on my wheels like any jumping just regular rolling tricks mostly. Never tried a whopper either and don't plan on it for the foreseeable future, so I think, for me at least, they should hopefully hold up pretty well 🤞  Pat said they are a great rim and should hold up quite well for my level of riding. He also said he only gets a few of them here and there and that they always sell out quickly, so I immediately purchased both when originally I was planning to only buy the rear now and front in a few months.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 05, 2021, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: mambocowboy
I love my Ares tires. Better than Box imo.

The short times I've ridden on ares tires I've loved them too. Went with 1.75s for now, though I've been considering trying the 1.9s at some point. I had a box on my rear wheel over the winter. I hated it at first, something about it felt really off but after a week and some wear in, I grew to like it but not enough that I'll be buying another pair. Sure are light weight though but also quite thin, I had several punctures over its life that might not have happened had it been a little thicker.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on April 05, 2021, 08:13:57 AM
Quote from: mambocowboy
I love my Ares tires. Better than Box imo.

The short times I've ridden on ares tires I've loved them too. Went with 1.75s for now, though I've been considering trying the 1.9s at some point. I had a box on my rear wheel over the winter. I hated it at first, something about it felt really off but after a week and some wear in, I grew to like it but not enough that I'll be buying another pair. Sure are light weight though but also quite thin, I had several punctures over its life that might not have happened had it been a little thicker.
The Box go bald way faster than the Ares for me...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 05, 2021, 10:00:08 AM
Yea that too, mine only had tread for a short while as it disappears quickly so was bald pretty much most of its life. Rode until the threads were showing pretty bad to try and get the most out of it.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 07, 2021, 01:23:48 AM
Nonsense that’s just Pat reducing the liability he bears from the tires blowing up. Air em up and ride it same day

That may very well be the case but so far every a class I've over owned failed from a blowout due to failure of the bead. One immediately after inflating, the second 15 minutes after inflating during a hang 5 (scary!) the third randomly blew over night after having been fine and stable at the same pressure for a few weeks and I think I may have even had a fourth that made it for awhile too but can't remember now. All of these were on wider then recommended rims (hazard lites) and admittedly a few psi higher then I should have gone, so I consider these failures mostly my fault.

But... I figured trying to ease them into near their rated psi can't hurt plus I'm not ready to switch yet anyways (lazy and dreading the adjustment to new tires period). I put 85 psi into them this morning, now up to 95 psi and then I'll go to 105 before bed. Tomorrow 115 then they day after 120 which is when I'm planning to install them and test em out. Overkill, I know, but i wasn't planning on installing them until then anyways.

hmm let me ask you something, what bead A class tire are you running? Kevlar or steel bead? I've had bad luck with the 3 I got from this batch that I won't ever run folding tires again. Steel all the way and not an issue. And I was even running under the advertised PSI anywhere from 110-120 on those tires. Sun Envy rims. The steel haven't caused a single blowout
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 07, 2021, 03:16:58 AM
Quote from: metalbmxer
hmm let me ask you something, what bead A class tire are you running? Kevlar or steel bead? I've had bad luck with the 3 I got from this batch that I won't ever run folding tires again. Steel all the way and not an issue. And I was even running under the advertised PSI anywhere from 110-120 on those tires. Sun Envy rims. The steel haven't caused a single blowout

I've had it happen with both though I think it was only once with the steal bead and the others were foldable Kevlar, it's been awhile so I don't remember exactly anymore. I'll probably go with steal bead if I have blowout problems again, this time I tried the foldable ones so 🤞
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 07, 2021, 03:29:53 AM
So I put the new wheels on today and it feels good! Scale says the bike is now almost 2.5 lbs lighter, definitely feels it! The back wheel especially is soooo nice, the axle on my old nankai was bent ever so slightly so it was causing rolling resistance, I didn't realize how much until today. Back wheel tricks feel soooo smooth now.

But having problems with the front wheel. Before installation the wheel spun perfectly but as I tighten up the pegs via the axle bolts it seems to cause the hub to tighten up.. I've never used a hub like this - female axle - so maybe I'm doing something wrong. I tried very carefully to tighten each side going back and forth a little by little between pegs, but no matter what the hub gets tightened down to where it no longer spins well. And I can feel it when I tried a front wheel rolling trick, there is resistance. I need to take it off again and take another look. Hub is armour bikes F1 grenade hub.


(https://i.imgur.com/4k6gv9E.jpg)
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 07, 2021, 03:58:54 AM
I've never seen a hub like this, I've only ever used ones with male axle with cone and lock nuts for adjusting
. But this one has a female axle, no cone nuts just guards that cover the ends. But it's like the female axle part is just a few mm too short so that when the axle bolts get tightened down when the hub is in the dropouts that it all gets compressed together just a wee bit too much (hopefully that makes sense?)
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 07, 2021, 09:55:11 AM
I've never seen a hub like this, I've only ever used ones with male axle with cone and lock nuts for adjusting
. But this one has a female axle, no cone nuts just guards that cover the ends. But it's like the female axle part is just a few mm too short so that when the axle bolts get tightened down when the hub is in the dropouts that it all gets compressed together just a wee bit too much (hopefully that makes sense?)

my first instinct says send it back tomorrow. Ask for a different hub (gsport or odyssey). The QC it's possible just isn't there from Armour. They made other great components but hubs is a different story. I had the same problem on a batch of front and rear profile hubs one time. Never rolled right.

But wait b4 you send it back consider this-->The only other workarounds I'd recommend are trying to put a small small shim in between the fork and hub to space it out (or could grind down the female axle). Also double check your fork isn't somehow cranking down on the wrong part of the hub. Also, I'd lose the hub guards all together. Can you swap out for the regular cones instead? Maybe don't need to torque it down too hard.....

Finally you can pop the shims off the sealed bearings and spray a little WD40 in there. Perhaps the grease isn't right / overdone inside.

Keep us posted on your progress
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 07, 2021, 09:59:32 AM
btw the all black bike with machined finish rims looks fuggin great man wow

glad you saved a whole 2.5 pounds. how much psi you running?

ps just checked that hub out. don't know what you mean about it coming with hub guards. also he's put alot of attention to detail making it a dialled hub. can't see him getting the cones wrong but you never know...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 07, 2021, 10:23:32 AM
Thank you. Pressure is currently 120. The sidewall of my tires claim they can be inflated to 125 but I'm not pushing it any further.


No I don't believe an error in assembly was made, flatlandfuel did a great job. The hub looks exactly like it's photo. What I referred to as guards are probably more accurately the cones as you suggested. Just once I tighten it down in the fork (via tightening the axle bolts) everything is essentially being squished together just a tiny bit too much resulting in the wheel spinning poorly. I'll take it apart and have a look in the afternoon.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: DaddyCool on April 07, 2021, 05:18:21 PM
Hello aliasdck, good to hear about the weight saving! Not so good to hear about your front hub issue. I only use one female hub (on my several bikes) and this also uses "press fit cones" which are only kind of washers and no thread. The problem in my case was: When you tighten the bolts, the dropouts are pressed against the "cones" and these press against the bearing. If the distance of the bearing areas on the axle is not 100 % the same as in the hub shell, the bearing is getting some side load which easily makes it not rolling smooth.
All this could be avoided by having normal cones with threads. I have almost no idea why 97% of all female hubs don't have it, maybe because it is cheaper/easier to produce.
One needs to distinguish two issues:
1. The axle bearing distance is too big. Then the hub typically runs smooth but when you ride on the front wheel in a curve with side load (by your body weight), then the hub shell will be shifted left to right on the bearings (with quick wear) and of course this is annoying.2. The axle bearing distance is too small. Then the inner ring of the bearing is pressed to the inside whereas the outer ring is not. This side load causes the hub not rolling smoothly.
What is the reason? From my understanding it is the tolerances in production.
What to do? First of all it is good to know the exact bearing distance in the hub shell and on the axle. In both cases (it seems you have case 2), you can try to add some very thin washers which you put "behind" the bearing. For case 2 you would need something like in the pictures.
By the way: It is not easy to find such washers (an online dictionary says they are called "shim ring") . I was lucky to find some in 0.1 mm, 0.2 mm and 0.5 mm for both the outer and inner ring of a hub bearing.
I find it difficult to try to explain this. I hope you get the idea.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 07, 2021, 08:41:23 PM
Daddycool, thank you so much for your advice. The problem appears to #2 as you described. I still need to take it apart for a closer look and I'll probably talk to Pat and see if he has any thoughts.

This is very frustrating. It was an expensive hub ($112 USD) with high quality/precision bearings so I expected much less problems especially 'right out of the box'

Hopefully I can find a solution, I'll look into the washer idea you displayed in the photos but it seems like adding washers, even 'behind' the bearings would only make the problem worse? But I need to take a closer look first, maybe I'm visualizing it wrong. It seems like either the female axle would need to be ever so slightly longer or the cones just a little bit thinner.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 07, 2021, 10:30:14 PM
Daddycool, thank you so much for your advice. The problem appears to #2 as you described. I still need to take it apart for a closer look and I'll probably talk to Pat and see if he has any thoughts.

This is very frustrating. It was an expensive hub ($112 USD) with high quality/precision bearings so I expected much less problems especially 'right out of the box'

Hopefully I can find a solution, I'll look into the washer idea you displayed in the photos but it seems like adding washers, even 'behind' the bearings would only make the problem worse? But I need to take a closer look first, maybe I'm visualizing it wrong. It seems like either the female axle would need to be ever so slightly longer or the cones just a little bit thinner.

as you're seeing its a major pain in the ass. Send it back to pat ASAP without riding it.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: DaddyCool on April 07, 2021, 11:33:04 PM
I had this problem with a used hub with an aluminium axle. Here the thicker parts of the axle where the inner ring of the bearing pushes against were damaged a bit resulting in a smaller distance from bearing to bearing on the axle.
Your hub is new and I agree to metalbmxer that this is kind of not acceptable.
If you want to make it run I am pretty sure that these shim rings could help. The thing is: If the distance of the bearing on the axle is too small, the cones push the inner ring to the inside of the hub whereas the outer ring of the bearing stays in its position. This is the side load for the bearing. If you add a shim ring, the axle is supporting the inner bearing rings from the inside and the forces are taken by the axle. That is why it works as long as what I am trying to describe is the root cause.
I have never seen a male hub with cones without threads, but I assume the same problem might occur. So in the end I think it is not a female axle issue, but an issue of "cones" without threads. This is so stupid...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 08, 2021, 12:03:48 AM
Thanks very much guys. I only tried riding on it for less than 5 minutes. I'll contact Pat, hopefully he can help. Again, as always, thank you so much for help and advice. This online community may be small but it kicks butt!
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on April 08, 2021, 12:47:11 AM
Thanks very much guys. I only tried riding on it for less than 5 minutes. I'll contact Pat, hopefully he can help. Again, as always, thank you so much for help and advice. This online community may be small but it kicks butt!
Sorry you're going through that . Unacceptable like what others have said.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 08, 2021, 08:16:22 PM
Ok, I've been talking with Pat and he wants me to try a couple different things before escalating to warranty replacement. TBH, I may just give up and buy a different hub instead. If I do so, Any good recommendations based on what's currently available at flatlandfuel? I'd prefer something not too heavy that still has good build quality and is reliable. I really dislike hubs when there is noticeable rolling resistance especially from side load during tricks where when rolling/carving in a circle.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Mambocowboy on April 08, 2021, 09:01:42 PM
Ok, I've been talking with Pat and he wants me to try a couple different things before escalating to warranty replacement. TBH, I may just give up and buy a different hub instead. If I do so, Any good recommendations based on what's currently available at flatlandfuel? I'd prefer something not too heavy that still has good build quality and is reliable. I really dislike hubs when there is noticeable rolling resistance especially from side load during tricks where when rolling/carving in a circle.
I had albes build me a wheel with alienation Tinman hub and alienation malice hub. Free build, very light  and problem free.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on April 08, 2021, 09:17:25 PM
like I said you can NEVER go wrong with odsy / gsport. I had the same thing happen to me on a $$$ set of Ti profile hubs that rolled completely fuct and it was the most frustrating thing in the world. Just check the most recent negative feedback I got regarding the sale and how I backed out. partly bc my old show manager wanted them and I just didn't feel comfortable selling them to another flatlander who might have noticed them rolling slow too.

that being said I went Odyssey front hub and Merrit rear FC (now am on a FEC) and haven't looked back.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 08, 2021, 09:28:38 PM
I haven't given up on the current hub just yet but we'll see. I may try contacting armour bikes directly myself and see if they have any thoughts.

Looks like currently flatlandfuel has gsport rollaway, odyssey C5 and Odyssey Vandero. If I do end going with another hub I'll have to see if the physical specs line up close enough so that I can possibly reuse the same spokes. Never actually built up a wheel on my own but might as well learn now if I do decide to swap hubs.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: Rep300 on April 22, 2021, 09:24:07 AM
Pat did my wheels, and I got chrome Birdcages and love them. GSport Roloway in the front. I had him put an AlienNation FC in the back because I asked for whichever one had the least amount of slack. So far I'm extremely happy. Hope you can figure out that hub.

At this point, I'd just send it back and have him throw a different hub in it. Toss a spare wheel on the front for a few days, and ride like one of those dudes that don't care that their wheels don't match! lol.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on April 23, 2021, 03:12:03 PM
Pat first wants me to make a video which I'm planning to do this weekend, then we'll see what armour bikes says about it. If it turns into a headache I'll just go with a different hub. Would have preferred to have done this video sooner but work has made it difficult to get enough time in my garage to do much of anything lately...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 19, 2021, 09:32:03 PM
That really sucks that the armor front hub is giving you a hard time .I just purchased a clutch v2 wheel and it had side to side "play" out of the box ,I got a replacement driver and it still has side to side "play"
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 19, 2021, 10:32:27 PM
So horrible to get something and have it defective out of the box, big dissapointment.

I shipped the wheel back to Pat last week and I think it just got delivered Monday. Pats gonna take a look at it and then working with armour he will let me know what they're gonna do. Hopefully I'll hear back something soon.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 20, 2021, 12:21:57 AM
I hope he replaces it with a g sport hub .I love my gsport hub
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 20, 2021, 03:54:30 AM
If it ends up being that I need to go with another hub then yea I was thinking GSport. Unfortunately flatlandfuel doesn't show stock of any at the moment. If they can get the armour one running good though I'll be happy with it, I like the way it looks.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: FlatSociety on May 20, 2021, 11:48:04 AM
Im sorry this happened. I currently ride & sell  Armour Hubs & couldn't be happier. I hope you get this resolved. If there;s anything I can do, don't hesitate to ask...
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 20, 2021, 03:00:34 PM
What exactly was the hub doing?I suspect that something in the manufacturing process went awry and something isnt up to specs .Thats what odyssey claims with my hub .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 20, 2021, 03:12:07 PM
Now that I saw your description there are 2 things it could be ,1 bad bearings or 2 the axle is machined wrong .I dont think the cones are the issue ,But since I dont have the hub in front of me I cant diagnose it .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 20, 2021, 05:47:19 PM
Yea that's kinda what i was thinking. When off the bike and then spun by hand I could feel some grinding/vibration coming from the bearings. Like almost as if there was dirt in there. Not enough that it made any audible noise but enough that I can feel it in my hands that are holding the axle as the wheel rotates.

Hopefully I'll hear something back soon. I bought this wheel quite awhile ago, I'd be nice to actually start using it soon.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 20, 2021, 05:51:23 PM
Hmmm probally crap bearings then .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: vortexblue on May 20, 2021, 06:44:13 PM
Just another angle at this:
I had 2 completes: a KHE Evo 0.F and a Colony Apprentice.
The apprentice had a solid front axle and the KHE had a hollow axle.  At 1 point, I swapped the wheels and the hollow axle wheel on the colony made some very concerning pops and other bad sounds.  It had difficulty spinning smoothly.
After some troubleshooting and rebuilding the hub 2x, I found the dropouts on the Colony fork were slightly 'toed-out' (like in car steering alignment).  The wheel would work fine off the bike, then, as I would tighten the front wheel, I suppose the fork was stronger than the bolts/ axle and would tweak the axle.  With every turn of the axle bolt, the wheel would bind more.

I ended up taking a larger adjustable wrench and aligned the dropouts straight. I used a pair of long straightedges and a machinists scale to measure that they were parallel.  The wheel popped right in and tightened just fine.  No more crunching, the wheel rode smooth.
So that was a fork issue.  Not saying that's the issue here, though.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 20, 2021, 06:49:34 PM
Op stated it felt crunchy off the bike .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on May 20, 2021, 06:51:27 PM
Buy a new wheel and ship the old one back. Pat will give you a credit. Ridiculous you're still dealing with this. I feel bad for you man. The parts should work 100% the day you get them!!!
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 20, 2021, 07:18:50 PM
Im thinking about going with the madera gulfcoaster hub instead .I didnt want a pawl based freecoaster but it is what it is I guess .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 23, 2021, 07:21:04 PM
Buy a new wheel and ship the old one back. Pat will give you a credit. Ridiculous you're still dealing with this. I feel bad for you man. The parts should work 100% the day you get them!!!

It's been going on for so long because I took forever in responding to and then sending back my wheel to flatlandfuel. It took me almost a month to get the wheel back in their hands. Both Pat and Armour Bikes have been responsive and helpful, the delay is my own fault. They have given me several options to choose from. I think I am going to have Pat swap it out for a different hub. Would have gone with the GSport but those don't appear to be in stock at FF at the moment. Maybe an odyssey, currently they have Vandero pro and C5 available, not sure yet I'm still looking around.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 23, 2021, 10:22:59 PM
Man I wish Pat was willing to work with me .Glad your getting taken care of though.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: pine on May 25, 2021, 11:55:53 AM
Hey guys , do you have any experience with the eclat cortex fc??
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 25, 2021, 03:08:58 PM
Cortex is a khe clone .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 25, 2021, 04:49:19 PM
Ended up having the armour hub swapped for a profile mini. Would have gone with a GSport but out of stock at the moment. Should have the wheel back in my hands within a week I estimate based on previous shipping times. Will be nice to finally be able to use it.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 25, 2021, 05:08:17 PM
Good to hear .I think odyssey is sending out a replacement wheel .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 28, 2021, 05:16:14 AM
Nice smsabb, so you're gettin take care of then too?

Looks like my wheel will be delivered day after tomorrow (Saturday). Will be nice to finally be able to use it!
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 28, 2021, 03:17:22 PM
Yeah hopefully I should have my new wheel this upcoming tuesday .I kinda wish I would have just bought a hoop and kept using my nankai hub .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on May 28, 2021, 04:41:15 PM
sick yall hope the installs go well and can get some time in this weekend absolutely destroying it. Get fresh rim strips in there too!
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 28, 2021, 05:31:15 PM
I am going to reuse my Velox tape ,As I have had it less than a month .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 28, 2021, 06:56:21 PM
Lol this is the first time I've actually used real quality rim strips, went with st Martin high pressure ones. Always just used electrical or masking tape over those really flimsy ones you get on a cheap wheel. Decided I might as well step it up finally.
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 28, 2021, 07:05:43 PM
I have used velox for years . I tried the odyssey ones and I never liked them .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: metalbmxer on May 28, 2021, 09:06:36 PM
The St Martin are ACE and the perfect width for narrower rims. Odyssey are good too but a little wider if memory serves me correctly. You put tape on there and the whole thing can get a bit messy. It's worth the investment to put rim strips on. Like a new set of grips on a new build or new set of bars :D

I've had velox b4 but rather just stick to the normal rim strips
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: smsabb on May 28, 2021, 09:11:13 PM
I have odyssey hazard lite rims .And I like velox more always have .
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 28, 2021, 09:22:23 PM
Yea those st martins fit the my narrower sun lite rims like a glove, can't believe I've been messing around with tape for so long (like for the last 25 years!) so much cleaner and professional. I decided to use them since I was building such nice wheels, would be a shame to resort to electrical tape
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: aliasdck on May 30, 2021, 12:19:18 AM
Just arrived! Spins smooooooth. Very excited, I'll give it a whirl tomorrow morning.


(https://i.imgur.com/7mLtoQB.jpg)
Title: Re: Selecting parts for a new rear wheel
Post by: pine on May 30, 2021, 09:06:25 AM
thank u
Cortex is a khe clone .