Global-flat.com Board
English => General Flatland Forum => Topic started by: mal on March 25, 2020, 03:22:36 PM
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I believe that the brakeless trend is killing flatland and moving people to other forms of riding,like street.
I will be fast.
Imagine you are a kid or an interested in bmx person in general,you see all this cool flatland action on videos,contests etc and you want to begin flatland yourself.
Most people you see will be riding brakeless,as this is the trend.So you get a bike and start learning!
After a month or so you start getting completely disappointed and discouraged because,obviously,you can't pull jack.
You either quit or start riding something easier like street or park,where brakes are not that mandatory to begin learning.
Because newer riders don't know that all the people they see doing crazy stuff brakeless had brakes for years (or decades) when they were learning the basics.
You can't begin flatland brakeless.Maybe you can but you will end up learning 2 tricks and have no idea where to go next,your riding will be so limited that you will eventually quit either of boredom or lack of progression.You will maybe consider yourself talentless because you have no idea in the world how these people learned these stuff and you can't.
Well,thats my opinion on one of the reasons flatland became such a small percentage (almost non existent) in the bmx riding styles.
Not saying that there are no other factors,like people are more fascinated on more spectacular and dangerous forms of riding,like kingsize ramps and jumps.
Just pointing out something that i think has been kept of the radar.
Please discuss!
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Yay for discussion!
The group of people I ride with almost all have brakes. Out of 20 or so people, I think 2 are brakeless. Granted, we're all older, and aren't current pros (some, former pros)...The recent OneLove jam in Newport had a big mix of brakes/ brakeless.
I think it's all in what you're watching. If noobs (like myself) are getting discouraged, they're not opening their eyes to the larger scene.
Comparison: I track old Miatas; I don't get angry when I can't keep up with F1 cars lap times- they're at a different level. I can appreciate what they do, but I wouldn't bother to compare myself to them.
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I can see where it comes from, removing your brakes is an instant +10 style points in the eyes of most riders, but I personally enjoy seeing the wider variety of tricks, as long as it flows.
Saying that, I don't like seeing someone jam brakes on and hop, I think that could have been left in the past. Just my opinion though, I don't find it entertaining to watch in the same way as I don't find pogos in freestyle skateboarding fun to watch.
Doing them, is another matter! Hippity hoppity sh*t is always going to be super fun :D
To me it's the difference between freestyle, and competition level flatland... I don't have a group of riders to hang with though, so all I see is the media that's spoon fed to me.
It's very unlikely I'll be doing brakeless decades anytime soon though.
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29 years into the flatland game, 15 years brakeless. Hardly a trend for me.
I'll post a longer answer as soon as my health improves.
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I don't know, flatland is pretty damn hard both with or without brakes. If you watched two kids progress, one with brakes and one without, I think you'd see them both progressing just along different paths. As hard as flatland is I don't think it's going to matter whether the kid starts with or without brakes because if they are going to give up they would have most likely done so regardless of their brake choice.
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I rode flatland back in the mid 80's to about '92 then stopped for 23 or so years. When I came back I went back to what I knew... brakes all over my bike. After a few years I decided to give brakeless a try. For no other reason than 'why not?'. I instantly lost a huge portion of my relatively limited bag of tricks. Even if I didn't use the brake(s) in the trick I lost some of them. Was mostly a mind game for me. I was so used to having my fingers on the brake lever that not having it there messed with my head. However, at the same time, it felt so free and awesome. I've since gone back to riding a front brake. Just the other day I was looking for the hardware in my toolbox for the rear brake to try again but I didn't have the right mounts for my current frame. I did try putting rear brakes on about a year or so ago for a single session. I literally almost killed myself because I didn't know how to use them any more! After that session I removed them and 'never again!'... yet, there I was the other day thinking about it.
I agree about what you said steve with the brakes being there as long as it flows. I too don't like all the hoppity hop tricks that we used to do back in the 80s.
Brakes...no brakes... To me, I don't really care nor do I think that brakeless (directly, anyway) is killing flatland. In my opinion, it's because:
1) flatland is extremely hard to learn (no matter what version of brakes you're running). This is probably why it's never really been super popular either.
2) finding a good spot can be extremely hard. sometimes you'll find the perfect spot then you'll get kicked out for whatever reason
3) there's so few that ride flatland and many people don't like riding solo. However, I love to ride solo. But, I also enjoy riding with other people. Solo is just the norm for me.
4) I hate to say it, but I think us flatlanders are sort of the 'nerds' of the BMX world. The 'cool' kids hang at the park. I literally will be riding and little kids mock me on their bikes and call me a 'ballerina' or something else that, I guess, is supposed to offend me. it doesnt... Doesn't now, nor did it back when I was a kid in highschool being laughed at by the cheerleaders/jocks. I didn't see them doing cherrypickers, miami hoppers, lawnmowers.... oh wait... now that I think back at those tricks they ARE pretty laughable.
Anyway, sorry to yammer on there... it's definitely an interesting topic. ride on!
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I literally will be riding and little kids mock me on their bikes and call me a 'ballerina'
Have you tried not wearing the tutu?
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I have both front and back brakes..some might call me old school
for that,but I was never into the total brakeless thing and my bike
is still under 20 pounds.I do love the way I can feather the brakes
to slow descent or movement to the point of balance, if you know
what I am talking about in pivoting the bike or in direction.
i know what you are talking about,nothing smoother and more satisfying than slow speed floating runs! Most ''new'' school riders look spastic and unstable because of the lack of speed control that brakes provide.
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"Have you tried not wearing the tutu?"
ha! No, no I have not... maybe that IS the issue. Hmnnn.... Maybe the tassles on my bars aren't helping things either. You have given me much to ponder!
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Vortexblue..do I know you and you were at this year's One Love
Jam 2020 and I have put up photos from that jam on my deviantart
page..
Probably not and yes.I was at OneLove, but I'm fresh back into riding after stopping in 89/90. I hang out at Hamels in SD on Sundays and HBTuesdays when I can get away from home. I'm getting over a couple of injuries, so my progress is slow. I'm not very good, but I like it and have fun falling all over the place. ;D
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I ride brakeless, mainly so when i learn to roll i don't have the safety net and I'm forced to learn the balance point. Its for my own personal progression and i think i have learnt a whole lot more since i went brakeless and push myself.
That being said, when it comes to watching flatland i prefer mid school era of riding with brakes. The newer stuff is just a bit too fast and repetitive, and i find it gets boring to watch quick.
But as with any sport it has to progress and evolve or it gets stale. Matthias is merging street style with flatland and he's damn good at it. I can't decide if i think its a good thing for the future of flatland but there is no denying the skill and creativity is mind blowing.
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I ride brakeless, mainly so when i learn to roll i don't have the safety net and I'm forced to learn the balance point. Its for my own personal progression and i think i have learnt a whole lot more since i went brakeless and push myself.
That being said, when it comes to watching flatland i prefer mid school era of riding with brakes. The newer stuff is just a bit too fast and repetitive, and i find it gets boring to watch quick.
But as with any sport it has to progress and evolve or it gets stale. Matthias is merging street style with flatland and he's damn good at it. I can't decide if i think its a good thing for the future of flatland but there is no denying the skill and creativity is mind blowing.
i agree on all points.
Sometimes you tend to use the brake on a trick that really doesn't need it and that may result in difficulty learning the trick or learning it wrong or taking you a lot of time.However i truly believe that it is very difficult,frustrating and limiting to start flatland without brakes!
I also mainly watch midschool flatland content too.More interesting,diverse riding.
On a random midschool contest of 15 competitors you get to watch probably 10 different styles of flatland riding.
On a new school contest almost all of them are doing the same tricks,add to that all the spinning turbining and pumping and you almost can't tell who is who,just guys going fast in small circles.
On a midschool contest lineup you'd have chad degroot,day smith,trevor meyer,paul osicka,andrew farris,dylan worsley,kerry gatt,leif valin etc all with personal styles and different and creative tricks.THIS is fun to watch!
Now? You get spinning guys!Thats it!
As for the future i see a lot more flatland tricks entering the streets and street riders having runs similar to flatland ones,with multiple trick combos on the same line.
I don't see flatland changing though,just shrinking because of the difficulty of the genre and kids trying to start brakeless and giving up.I think that now,the average age of a flatlander is not below 30.
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Yo Mal...
You need to check this guy out, the speed of the new school but the tricks of the mid school...
Lots of links I've never seen before, this section has truly blown my mind! Respect to Nick Watts, i would love to see more flatland riders like this.
Nick Watts - Landscapes 3 section (https://youtu.be/lI2v74632VA)
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Hey mal, "I think that now,the average age of a flatlander is not below 30." That is sad somehow but you made me smile. I think it is true...
A riding friend of me who basically does not ride anymore because he was frustrated somehow once said to me that he thinks that in some way Kevin Jones killed flatland because he turned it into a very complex sport which is so difficult to learn. That might be one reason why hardly anyone starts... But on the other hand I see some new (or mid school) combos which are so beautiful and think this would not be possible without Kevin's contribution. So in the end I like it how it is.
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Yo Mal...
You need to check this guy out, the speed of the new school but the tricks of the mid school...
Lots of links I've never seen before, this section has truly blown my mind! Respect to Nick Watts, i would love to see more flatland riders like this.
Nick Watts - Landscapes 3 section (https://youtu.be/lI2v74632VA)
yeah,i have seen him,he is very inventive!
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Hey mal, "I think that now,the average age of a flatlander is not below 30." That is sad somehow but you made me smile. I think it is true...
A riding friend of me who basically does not ride anymore because he was frustrated somehow once said to me that he thinks that in some way Kevin Jones killed flatland because he turned it into a very complex sport which is so difficult to learn. That might be one reason why hardly anyone starts... But on the other hand I see some new (or mid school) combos which are so beautiful and think this would not be possible without Kevin's contribution. So in the end I like it how it is.
What can you say about Kevin Jones,there should be a statue of him somewhere in the flatland world..!
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When I got back into riding, after a 10-year pause, I recovered all my tricks, many of which used brakes for rideouts and saving balance at the critical point. Then I took them off and, like others have said, I lost almost everything. It took me some years to actually do the same things without the brakes, and that was all my progress. Despite that, I'm glad I did it, because I feel I really gained more control, far beyond my previous level. On the other hand, some tricks are still very dangerous for me (pedal glides rolling backwards), because once you start to fall things happen very quick, and you are holding the bars with all your strength, so sometimes there's little chance to save yourself from a nasty crash. The weird thing is, I have practiced these tricks so much that I can to them without touching the brake at all, but if I remove it, then I tend to fail the trick. So, it must be a matter of mental discipline, and maybe some day I'll make it completely brakeless. The question is if it is worth it.
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Another brakeless challenge for me is pinky squeaks. I can do many with brakes, but my absolute best without brakes is only four, and most of the time I manage only three, or even two. I also lose consistence, failling more than I pull off. Again, sometimes I wonder if it's worth it, and I just put the front brake back on.
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Hey Rufus, four pinky squeaks without a brake ist hard! I tried it some time ago but did not keep on practising because it was too hard. I stepped over the frame two times (so to say three rounds of the frame) here and there, but I needed endless tries for that. So props for doing four! This is one of the tricks that is about 10 times as hard without brakes.
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It is not frequent to see someone doing those. A few years ago there was a pinky squeak contest in this forum, and someone did nine in the brakeless category, but they were fire hydrants, not really pinky squeaks (it was impressive, though).
For me, it is so frustrating to lose consistency due to the abscense of brakes, sometimes making me wonder what's the point of all that suffering. And yet, I keep coming back to the quest for trascendental balance, and take them off again. Maybe some day I will do them perfectly, in another ten years.
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Another oldschool move that becomes interesting when done brakeless is the multiple boomerang without touching the frame. I have never seen anyone doing more than four, and that was Dennis McCoy in the late eighties. Beautiful trick.
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About the pinky squeaks: I really enjoyed this:
https://vimeo.com/94884276
About the multiple boomerang (some call it hangglider as far as I know): I am almost sure that Albert Retey did five in one of the super early videos from Marton from around 1994, but I am not sure if it was completely brakeless. Very stylish in any case! I think the video's name was "Steam Engine". Do you know it?
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Not being exactly a good rider, personally I quit brakes because I couldn't withstand no more the need to be constantly adjusting them and even then sometimes they failed on me which was very frustrating. That being said, I don't even remember making the switch to brakeless, I know that it was with my first true flatland setup but I don't remember how hard it was to live with it on the weeks that came.
One thing I believe though, as hard as flatland is, having a brake on the end you specialised in, either the front or the rear wheel, does help a lot I am sure, hell some tricks may not even be doable without it or at least a lot of pain will be required to achieve it.
Brakeless in my humble opinion offers a much smoother, all around more beautiful flow, brakes on the other hand easily cut the flow down and for as much as I love the now classic videos that everyone has in great regard, I enjoy a lot more the modern riders style and their (mostly) brakeless riding.
Regarding kids quitting soon after they try it.
I don't think brakes are to blame for. Laziness and youth probably! It is much cooler to bunnyhop off/onto a garden seat or to manual out of one. It looks dangerous and so it gets extra points. In short terms, there is much more to gain in "style points" learning bunnyhops and manuals and being able to link them than to learn a steamroller or an hang5.
Kids quit because it is much easier to find another guy with a street bike than a lone dude on a parking lot doing backpackers.
After knowing how to pull Hang5, Steamrollers and maybe hitchhikers, I cant recall, I tried to teach two kids. Guess what, they never went past the barspin, they learned it but for reasons I can't understand I never saw them practicing without me and they simple vanished. Personal issues? Lack of interest? Lifes tough i guess, not everyone can afford to lear flatland.
I always, always, rode alone, there are no flatlanders where I live and very few are active in Portugal at all that I know of. Sure, I never put any effort in meeting the few that are still riding or that rode in the past, but locally I have always been "doomed" to learning everything on my own by watching videos and I can imagine that it must be better if you have someone to guide you, challenge you and progress with you. Flatland does not give you that, not in most of Europe at least, not in the 21st century.
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Wow, thanks for that video...!! I'm going to try them like that. If I manage to pull even a just few, I might never put the brakes back again. Yes, the handglider. I think I remember that video your're talking about. I think he had brakes, though.
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The bike I built last summer to return to riding has brakes since my goals are pretty low and just wanted to have some fun relearning stuff I had in the 90s. One thing I never mastered back then was multiple whiplashes so that has become one of my goals for this year. A lot of the conversation has focused on "to brake or not to brake" but is there anyone that took the approach of building two rigs one with brakes and one without? I was able to pick up an identical used frame to what I'm currently riding over the winter with the aim to build an identical brakeless counterpart allowing the luxury of not needing to dismantle or disconnect anything if I want to work on something without the safety net of brakes. Am I alone in this (possibly mad and admittedly luxurious) line of thinking?
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The bike I built last summer to return to riding has brakes since my goals are pretty low and just wanted to have some fun relearning stuff I had in the 90s. One thing I never mastered back then was multiple whiplashes so that has become one of my goals for this year. A lot of the conversation has focused on "to brake or not to brake" but is there anyone that took the approach of building two rigs one with brakes and one without? I was able to pick up an identical used frame to what I'm currently riding over the winter with the aim to build an identical brakeless counterpart allowing the luxury of not needing to dismantle or disconnect anything if I want to work on something without the safety net of brakes. Am I alone in this (possibly mad and admittedly luxurious) line of thinking?
i would do it for sure if i had the money
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I have done that, too. Two identical bikes, one with brakes and one without. In truth, I started doing that because I constantly moved between two cities, and always travelling with the bike was a hassle. But it is a great training method.
I have found that, if the brake is there, I tend to use it, and I also tend to avoid brakeless tricks that can lead to painful crashes. So, at the end, it is a good practice method to get the feeling for some brakeless tricks, but at some point you really have to let them go if you want to make progress.
As Hugo said, I enjoy riding brakeless much more. It feels like a "purer", more essential form of riding to me. And, as has been said in another thread, I see my riding as meditation. I don't do it to be seen, or to socialize, but to concentrate, and to keep fit. I cant afford to get hurt, though, and that's when brakes come back, albeit temporarily.
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I tried to write a bit about this a while ago. Found it here:
https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334 (https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334)
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I partly agree with you, the general audience does have a hard time understanding flatland, especially the new school where combos, variations and tricks get insaner every passing year. Professional riders found they're path, it seems, in trying to complicate each trick they now into a more complex version.
If they can do it rolling forwards then learn it rolling backwards.
If you have mastered it going forwards and backwards then do it switchfoot.
Switchfoot got easy? Hell, do it crossfooted!
Crossfooted got boring? Why not go crosshanded while crossfooted and maybe throw a barspin in the middle or just jump link it to the next trick of the combo without the assistance of brakes!
There is a video where Dandois confesses it took him 6 months to learn hang5's. I am not saying I am a supernatural entity but hell it took me far less than that to learn either Hang5's, hitchhikers or cliffhangers. Suffice to say that difficulty and complexity come at very different levels to different people.
On the other hand switchfoot looks ridicuously difficult to me, I am not even gonna mention crossfooted. My god I cant even nose wheelie!!
Flatland has always been hard and one of the problems for begginers I believe, is that when you watch full-blown edits from experienced riders, they're flow and hard worked combos look so damn easy that you may be tricked into believing that you will be able to do that in a couple of weeks. Wrong.
Have you guys looked at Benjamin Hudon's (http://www.global-flat.com/smf/redbull.com/sg-en/athlete/benjamin-hudson-bmx-flatand) riding? I know, he's 25 now, not that impressive comparing to other pros but being sponsored at 25 is not for everyone, he's a 90s kid, a "Generation Z" kid and he accomplished a level of riding that 99% of everyone who tries, won't achieve.
I would say that 21st century flatland does require some deal of motivation and riding with other people in order to understand the best way to learn complicated tricks and switches. On the other hand if we think about the baselines are still the same, the basic tricks that allow a pro rider to awe a crowd of knowledgeable co-riders are still the same, an Hang5, a streamroller, an mc-circle, etc, advanced riders are just guys who understood how to make those tricks come together with flow and speed.
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Like Vert, both disciplines have drifted to the far-flung ends of the bmx spectrum.
Therefore their appeal is now marginal, & continues this way as the evidence does now suggest.
It's all going full-cycle, esp at present with Street evolving in a similar fashion.
The bikes now are now aiding the now progressive technical styles that may alienate in a similar course.
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I am uber curious to know the views of the guys who started it all, Kevin Jones or Day Smith are two that pop in my mind. I wonder how they witnessed the evolution of the sport and how to they think their riding compares to the current standards.
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Those two eras (Kevin's AFA days and Day's X-games time, respectively) would be interesting to hear from. I started competing in 1984, and at the time, the barriers to entry seemed higher on ramps than flatland. With street and dirt and such, it doesn't seem that way now (which was part of my argument in the ESPN piece).
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I tried to write a bit about this a while ago. Found it here:
https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334 (https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334)
Ι agree with the article 100%. It also agrees with the thoughts i had writing this topic that it is totally discouraging for a newbie to start brakeless after seeing and admiring the pros who do it.
The one thing that confused me a bit is about Kevin Jones,where it says that some people say Kevin Jones killed flatland.
Where does this come from,i never heard anyone saying this.
Kevin Jones invented modern flatland as Rodney Mullen invented modern skateboarding.Flatland would have been a funny gimmick between basketball quarters without him.
Can you enlighten me on this one?
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There was an article online years ago (I can't find it now) claiming that Kevin killed flatland by making it a secret, solitary, parking-lot activity, as opposed to a spectator sport. That's all I can remember of their argument. Anyway, that's what I was referring to in the ESPN piece.
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About the idea with the two bikes: I also did this.
http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?topic=61962.msg465108#msg465108 (http://www.global-flat.com/smf/index.php?topic=61962.msg465108#msg465108)
The bikes changed a little bit since then but basically they are like shown. I really recommend to take care for the weight and weight distribution because otherwise they will feel too different.
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I tried to write a bit about this a while ago. Found it here:
https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334 (https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334)
That is interesting royc! I also quickly checked your website, this is intersting as well :)
Somehow I think Kevin's contribution to flatland led to the complexity level that makes it not understandable for the audience. That is a "problem" so to say, but of course we can not blame him. Yesterday during my session I thought "This hitchhiker feels so good, without Kevin I would not do this...". So in the end I am grateful for this contribution. I would say we need to live with the fact that nobody understands what we are doing.
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"...we need to live with the fact that nobody understands what we are doing"
This is so true.
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Also, for a beginner, watching a flawless link might seem encouraging, but the reality of endless repetition and failed attempts needed to achieve it usually works in the opposite way. I can see why very few new people get involved. Maybe this is one of the charms of the sport.
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Anyone at all, from any era that rides brake less has always been astounding to me. I don’t even like coasting around my neighborhood without brakes and a rotor, let alone doing tricks.
Don’t get me started on left hand drive bikes and these new geometries! You crazy kids!!😂
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I tried to write a bit about this a while ago. Found it here:
https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334 (https://www.espn.com/action/news/story?id=4263334)
That is interesting royc! I also quickly checked your website, this is intersting as well :)
Somehow I think Kevin's contribution to flatland led to the complexity level that makes it not understandable for the audience. That is a "problem" so to say, but of course we can not blame him. Yesterday during my session I thought "This hitchhiker feels so good, without Kevin I would not do this...". So in the end I am grateful for this contribution. I would say we need to live with the fact that nobody understands what we are doing.
Thank you!
I don't think being relegated to obscurity is so bad. It keeps most of the knuckleheads away anyway.
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I believe that who says Kevin Jones killed flatland means that because he was the first to start nailing down very hard tricks and combos. I guess he took flatlands technicality to the next level but was flatland ever supposed to be less than very hard to master? Every year someone comes up with a harder way to do an hitchiker or to link two tricks...