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English => General Flatland Forum => Topic started by: sakis on July 11, 2014, 01:54:06 PM

Title: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: sakis on July 11, 2014, 01:54:06 PM
Hello,
i would like to inform everybody here that you should be very careful when you order custom frames from
malo.
1)My frame cracked at the left seatstay then i send it to france,he cutted the seatstay in the middle and he put half new tube and half old seatstay,then after 2 months the other seatstay tube cracked.Because it was more than a year old this time i had to pay around 75 euro for the repair!i never send it back..i tig weld it here in greece.

2)we agreed to have chainstay extended with the peg at the end at 13.375 and instead he made it 13.25,when i asked malo why he never anwsered.NOT WHAT I ORDERED.

3)The back end is not welded straight,that means that the backwheel is not parallel to the front,i wanst sure about this,when i send my frame to france for malo to "repair" the frame he told me the frame is straight,but you can see this with your eyes!Not only me but at least 4 more riders,and a bike shop i ll post pics for this later..

4)My two friends alex alexandridis and george kikos frames also cracked.
my frame lasted around 12 months till it crack and the other 2 frames around 5 months of riding each one,when i asked malo why is george frame cracked he told me that the overlapping weld that george wanted at the seatpost connection is prone to crack and it is not the strongest and he doesnt have time to inform everybody what is the strongest choice...

5)Did i say already that he blocked me,miloc mihailovic,alex alexandridis,and george kikos from facebook because we upload pics with our cracked frames,each one costed 500 euro......
i build around 5 frames from solid bikes and when one frame cracked cause of wrong design they made me a new one for very very cheap,i never had problem with solid bikes and everytime they did everything perfect,...Malo instead delete us when i asked him if he want to make us 3 new frames an we could pay 500 euro for those 3 frames like a warantee or discount but he said no...
SO be careful things sometimes arent what they look from outside....I got my lesson with malo.
The truth is dark sometimes....
I have everything on email by the way...
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS custom frames....
Post by: justfour on July 11, 2014, 02:58:34 PM
Maybe Malo hired Kamil for fabrication...
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: wolverines on July 11, 2014, 10:32:30 PM
One person does all my stuff, and backs it 100%

Dylan Worsley. 
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: alejandro on July 12, 2014, 11:00:25 AM
Yes here is my story,

Before i bought a frame from Pir i ask him to do them lightweights,i supose it will last at least 1-2 years i payed 390 euros its alot of money! and after 4 months of riding it cracked in front of top tube see photos below,so i ask for Malo what we can do in this situation of only 4 months of riding,i expected from him to say send the frame back so i can repair it for free,its only 4 months! but i payed 130 euro including shipping the shipping was 50 euros return,and then after 6 months it crack on the uper back triangle,so i welded it here in my local welder,my point is that Malo dont respect his customers like within in 4 months frame is cracked and the customer has to pay again for everything,in order that Malo believes that its my frame of choice at least he must warn the customers to proceed to another set up so the frame dont crack in 4 months,also from a rider to proceed to a custom frame that means that he is so many years in the scene and he is expierience and wants the perfect frame and manufactor must respect those kind of clients, thing that malo didnt respect anything,so the total result is approximately 540 euros i have it 1,5 year and the frame cracked 2 times...... big value for money,so i think in my opinion it dont worth it,also my friend's, George Kikos,Sakis Doumas frame's cracked within the same story each one we payed 500 euros..... and also the most childest thing somone can do is that Pir block us from our facebook account,so in the end i dont wish the worst for him but i hope within this kind of posts that in the future he will respect his clients and at least give a warranty 6 months or 1 year so he can progress on his frame products and keep selling otherwise we all know the bad end story....

Peace!
Alex Alexandridis
http://alexalexandridis.blogspot.gr/ (http://alexalexandridis.blogspot.gr/)
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: DaddyCool on July 12, 2014, 12:21:59 PM
Hi guys,
sorry for you having trouble, but I think there are some things to be considered.
Of course the frame should be straight and with all the desired measurement, this is for sure. But do you really think that 390 Eur is a lot of money for a custom frame? I think it is super cheap. So many parts crack when one rider uses them and do not when another one does. So Malo can not estimate if a frame will last six or ten month because he does not know how you ride. If you design your own frame, you are also responsible for how strong it is. Why didn't you chose bigger tube diameters and more wall thickness?
I personally can hardly imagine that Malo makes some money at all when he offers frames so cheap. Do you have any idea how much cheaper it is to do a mass production in Taiwan? So when Malos frame cost 500 Eur instead of 300 Eur for a normal frame, this is cheap. And if he has to repair it, he will basically pay it on his own if he does not charge you some money.
I do not know all the details and can not tell who is right and who is not, but I just would like to point out that I think some people have too high expectations.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 12, 2014, 12:33:27 PM
yes daddy cool you are right,when i chose my frame there was not available 0.049 thickness and 7/8" for the backend for example,for 14 mm.
Malo told me s&m and solid uses this same bullet tipped dropouts so they should be strong..
so i ride backweel i wanted to be strong we put 0.049 tube bridge and whisbone so the frame be a bit stronger in that area..
The point is that this is not professional behaviour,to erase your clients from fb and not answer back..
when i was sending the design for the frame i got fast anwsers!now that the frame is payed malo is dissapeared?
by the way my frame costed 485-490 euro with the shipping unpainted.shipping was 22 euro from france to greece.cheers malo
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: geoflatland on July 12, 2014, 01:32:41 PM
All i know is that i had the mankind code frame for 2 years with no problem at all and i changed this for a new custom frame from malo that it lasted 5 months...470 euro frame... this is not right you should have respect for your clients
Peace Guys and ride on!!
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: metalbmxer on July 12, 2014, 01:49:05 PM
I'm skeptical of this claim. I heard the story of a Greek rider that custom ordered parts with a light weight design only to have been ABUSED and later broken. 

Don't get me wrong I'd be upset too, but when you are throwing your bike learning bike flips or whatever it was yall were doing then it should be expected that the part/frame would break.

And it is unprofessional to post it publicly like this. You should have tried to work 1 on 1 with him to purchase a new frame at the cost price.

Not trying to come across as unfriendly, but I want to get the other side of the story out there.

Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: Paradoxium on July 12, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
Sounds like a thicker gauge tubing is needed. Problem is most think more about light weight, instead of maybe a little bit heavier but lasts forever.
Sorry to hear of your troubles guys.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 12, 2014, 02:21:42 PM
metalbmer:

you probably havent read the topic or the posts,please read again SLOWLY this time.
we tried to make 3 new frames with malo when they all cracked,he said i will not make parts for you anymore.
He even asked me why i didnt buy a frame with lifetime warantee since i am hard on backweel...instead he could say to me the tubes i have now at the moment (since i told him i ride hard)are not for hard riding,instead of this he told me bike companies use those tubes...
how do you know we do bikeflips?
Since i pay 500 euro i want my frame to last for newschool riding,or else i ll buy something that is ready.
unprofessional is not to anwser back your clients and not helping them,please do not tell me what is right and wrong, i already run two bussiness both with lot of communication and i have great feedback.
plus we are the three of us 30 plus years and ride 15 years each one...we are not kids that dont know about bmx and came here to write bad things adn make bad to a bike company.

We all already contact him many times and i havent got an anwser at my last email,then he delete the three of us at facebook..
we told him to make us three frames paying 500 euro total so we would then have a good opinion since the frames are 1 year and less old and he sayed he will never make parts for us anymore.

This is unprofessional 100%.Not the post here.


paradoxium
i agree with you my frame for example weights 2.150 kg,i consider this as a heavy frame for flatland since all the frames weight round 1.9 kg nowdays.i expect it to be strong not cut twce.


Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: 2flat2furious on July 12, 2014, 06:48:51 PM
If you get a year out of a frame that's a pretty good lifespan these days. My mankind code is the first frame I've had that's lasted that long or longer.

Were any of you doing bunnyhop tailwhips?
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 12, 2014, 09:38:58 PM
i do bunnyhop whips but i do them for 6 years now.
i ve  learn them with lighter frames weight 1.7 kg,like 4 frames from solid,i was doing them for hours and for lot of sessions,2 s&m intrikat frames,a wtp div frames and maybe others i cant remember the last 6 years..All of them no problem at all
the pir frame that is the heaviest of all cracked and the last year i only do them maybe one two times at a session or ever 2-3 sessions..
whoppers have nothing to do with those 3 frames
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: byke on July 13, 2014, 12:01:38 PM

I had read Sakis original post on Facebook and did ask why the seat stay had cracked, he informed me that it was because the tubing was too thin. Now, here is the 50 million dollar question, did sakis agree to this spec of tubing?

According to him, yes he did.
Originally Sakis had asked for a slightly thicker tubing but was informed by PIR that it wasn't available at the time. So he chose to go with the thinner tubbing.

This is a custom frame.


My view is, if you agree to a detail that is different to what and it breaks.
Then that choice is purely on your own head.
When you order a custom frame, you do so based on your instructions and what is available.
If it can't be made to how you want, you have 2 choices.

1. Don't go through with the order.
or
2. Go ahead with it, and be responsible for your choice if it doesn't work out.

I mean no disrespect to with Sakis or PIR.
But quality is based on craftsmanship.
And you can't judge quality on poor design choices.

Sakis chose the wrong tubing, he agreed to using thinner tubbing as that was what was available at the time and now it cracked.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: byke on July 13, 2014, 12:09:38 PM
Yes here is my story,

Before i bought a frame from Pir i ask him to do them lightweights,i supose it will last at least 1-2 years i payed 390 euros its alot of money! and after 4 months of riding it cracked in front of top tube see photos below,so i ask for Malo what we can do in this situation of only 4 months of riding,i expected from him to say send the frame back so i can repair it for free,its only 4 months! but i payed 130 euro including shipping the shipping was 50 euros return,and then after 6 months it crack on the uper back triangle,so i welded it here in my local welder,my point is that Malo dont respect his customers like within in 4 months frame is cracked and the customer has to pay again for everything,in order that Malo believes that its my frame of choice at least he must warn the customers to proceed to another set up so the frame dont crack in 4 months,also from a rider to proceed to a custom frame that means that he is so many years in the scene and he is expierience and wants the perfect frame and manufactor must respect those kind of clients, thing that malo didnt respect anything,so the total result is approximately 540 euros i have it 1,5 year and the frame cracked 2 times...... big value for money,so i think in my opinion it dont worth it,also my friend's, George Kikos,Sakis Doumas frame's cracked within the same story each one we payed 500 euros..... and also the most childest thing somone can do is that Pir block us from our facebook account,so in the end i dont wish the worst for him but i hope within this kind of posts that in the future he will respect his clients and at least give a warranty 6 months or 1 year so he can progress on his frame products and keep selling otherwise we all know the bad end story....

Peace!
Alex Alexandridis

I disagree.
This is an issue of design choice and not fabrication.

If you supply a lightweight or poor design for your needs, its going to be weaker unless you have supplied a design that has been carefully stress tested etc.

The real question needs to be the following when it comes to custom frames :
Tubing : Did they supply the tubing you agreed to ?
Quality : Was the manufacturing mitring, jigging and welding up to scratch ?

If the answer is yes, then surely the responsibility has to come down to the specs.
If you chose the wrong design for the job and agreed to commission it to be made and it breaks, then that is not the manufacturers fault.

I feel for you both.
But maybe the responsibility lies with you choices of design.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: byke on July 13, 2014, 12:11:12 PM
i do bunnyhop whips but i do them for 6 years now.
i ve  learn them with lighter frames weight 1.7 kg,like 4 frames from solid,i was doing them for hours and for lot of sessions,2 s&m intrikat frames,a wtp div frames and maybe others i cant remember the last 6 years..All of them no problem at all
the pir frame that is the heaviest of all cracked and the last year i only do them maybe one two times at a session or ever 2-3 sessions..
whoppers have nothing to do with those 3 frames

Yeah but the difference is that the weight is because of your design.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 13, 2014, 12:30:38 PM
i do bunnyhop whips but i do them for 6 years now.
i ve  learn them with lighter frames weight 1.7 kg,like 4 frames from solid,i was doing them for hours and for lot of sessions,2 s&m intrikat frames,a wtp div frames and maybe others i cant remember the last 6 years..All of them no problem at all
the pir frame that is the heaviest of all cracked and the last year i only do them maybe one two times at a session or ever 2-3 sessions..
whoppers have nothing to do with those 3 frames

Yeah but the difference is that the weight is because of your design.

yes my design but no problem with the other frames that i did harder whips and i even had a waltz frame for a year or 1.5 at those 6 years that i do them...weight 1750 and no problem at all for the waltz..


Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: DaddyCool on July 13, 2014, 12:40:35 PM
Sakis, when other even lighter frames hold up for you, does that mean that it was Malos fault that the PiR frame cracked? It seems like one can design and build a frame that is lighter and strong enough, this is evident. But it is not logical from my point of view that Malo did something wrong here.
I mean 15 years ago we cracked 3 kg frames...
I can understand that you are a little angry when your e-mails are not answered and stuff like this, but for the issue itself I do not agree with you. I think Byke pointed it out quite clearly.
I hope you can find a solution for yourself.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 13, 2014, 12:43:39 PM

I had read Sakis original post on Facebook and did ask why the seat stay had cracked, he informed me that it was because the tubing was too thin. Now, here is the 50 million dollar question, did sakis agree to this spec of tubing?

According to him, yes he did.
Originally Sakis had asked for a slightly thicker tubing but was informed by PIR that it wasn't available at the time. So he chose to go with the thinner tubbing.

This is a custom frame.


My view is, if you agree to a detail that is different to what and it breaks.
Then that choice is purely on your own head.
When you order a custom frame, you do so based on your instructions and what is available.
If it can't be made to how you want, you have 2 choices.

1. Don't go through with the order.
or
2. Go ahead with it, and be responsible for your choice if it doesn't work out.

I mean no disrespect to with Sakis or PIR.
But quality is based on craftsmanship.
And you can't judge quality on poor design choices.

Sakis chose the wrong tubing, he agreed to using thinner tubbing as that was what was available at the time and now it cracked.


byke,
the tubing was used is 0.035''=0.09 mm as most frames use this days,malo told me this tube is thicker at the dropouts as the tube is smaller there,around 1.3 mm thickness if i remember well..this is still thick tubing,its not thin,checkout the code frame to see that is uses even thinner tubing than my frame.
Also
I agreed because malo told me that bike company uses those tubes...
if i knew that he would not support me after my frame cracks and he would not anwser my email i wouldnt proceed with malo to make me a frame!!!
And i wouldnt propose it to george and alex,so my two friends have now cracked frames because i told them is good..
One more thing,my topic is not only because of the crack but it also states that the frame is not what i order
as it is shorter at the backend,and it is not welded straight,the wheels arent parallel..
i rode this frame 14 months with a bad back end!!This detail cant seen in the picture but i ll try to point this out also..
To metal bmxer,when i asked malo to weld me a new backend after the frame cracked on both seatstays the price is 175 euro without the shipping. so no frame for cost price as you understand.

Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 13, 2014, 12:50:39 PM
Sakis, when other even lighter frames hold up for you, does that mean that it was Malos fault that the PiR frame cracked? It seems like one can design and build a frame that is lighter and strong enough, this is evident. But it is not logical from my point of view that Malo did something wrong here.
I mean 15 years ago we cracked 3 kg frames...
I can understand that you are a little angry when your e-mails are not answered and stuff like this, but for the issue itself I do not agree with you. I think Byke pointed it out quite clearly.
I hope you can find a solution for yourself.

I agree with you but my topic has 5 paragraphs.
The first one is about the crack,its okay maybe the design was wrong but i dont agree,my peg was at 13.375 and it was out of the dropout by 3 mm,thats why the frame cracked,if malo had the right design i gave him the frame would be stronger at tha area.
 you can read also the other 4 paragraphs,its about support communication,wrong design etc
anyway i dont have problem with malo.i just came here to inform people that they order something and at the end they might get something else,the crack is crack,everything breaks,from then how the company will solve the problem its at their own.
peace ride on
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: byke on July 13, 2014, 02:24:17 PM
i do bunnyhop whips but i do them for 6 years now.
i ve  learn them with lighter frames weight 1.7 kg,like 4 frames from solid,i was doing them for hours and for lot of sessions,2 s&m intrikat frames,a wtp div frames and maybe others i cant remember the last 6 years..All of them no problem at all
the pir frame that is the heaviest of all cracked and the last year i only do them maybe one two times at a session or ever 2-3 sessions..
whoppers have nothing to do with those 3 frames


Yeah but the difference is that the weight is because of your design.

yes my design but no problem with the other frames that i did harder whips and i even had a waltz frame for a year or 1.5 at those 6 years that i do them...weight 1750 and no problem at all for the waltz..

The problem is the frames you reference too had different proportions of metal distribution at different angles. So while the frame may be so called lighter, the distribution of material in different areas is what separates the two.

Design is everything, and it appears that what let you down was not poor quality materials of workmanship but actually design choices.

Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: byke on July 13, 2014, 02:40:03 PM

byke,
the tubing was used is 0.035''=0.09 mm as most frames use this days,malo told me this tube is thicker at the dropouts as the tube is smaller there,around 1.3 mm thickness if i remember well..this is still thick tubing,its not thin,checkout the code frame to see that is uses even thinner tubing than my frame.

Yes 0.035" is often used in many frames.
And tapered bullet style stays do become thicker near the end as the tubing is funnelled into a mould that decreases the outside diameter and subsequently squeezes this tube into a more ergonomical shape. So as the tube goes through this process from a straight gauge tube it redistributes the material and thus makes it thicker, although the tubing outside diameter also shrinks.


I agreed because malo told me that bike company uses those tubes...
if i knew that he would not support me after my frame cracks and he would not anwser my email i wouldnt proceed with malo to make me a frame!!!

But hindsight is the action of learning from your mistakes after they happen.
No one can predict exactly how much pressure you as an individual can or will put through their frame.
As stated, 0.035" is commonly used on many production bikes. But how many of those production bikes have the same design as yours? The answer most probably is close to 0. Your design featured a lower TT than that of other production bikes you have previously owned (such as the S&M intricate). The design also features a offset and even lower connection point for the seat stays to connect to the seat mast. All these design changes will have a profound effect on strength, but these are all design issues and any frame maker can not be held responsible for customers choices in regards to their chosen specification.

And i wouldnt propose it to george and alex,so my two friends have now cracked frames because i told them is good..

I can't speak for you friends issues as I am not aware of the exact details of their breakage.
But from my understanding this issue does not relate to workmanship quality, but again design choices.

One more thing,my topic is not only because of the crack but it also states that the frame is not what i order
as it is shorter at the backend,and it is not welded straight,the wheels arent parallel..
i rode this frame 14 months with a bad back end!!This detail cant seen in the picture but i ll try to point this out also..

Totally cool, send us some pics and I will have a quick look.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 13, 2014, 03:23:30 PM
byke it seems you are getting too much in technical details about the crack it self,
i know that my frame is shorter and with lower stand over than other frames,but not from all i used,the solid frames were with lower stand over and the waltz frame had a bend dt,and same diameter tubes at the backend,my frame had thick dt and bigger diameter tubes than the waltz and the solid frames i used.
as i posted at daddycool anwser i ll tell you the same things..

2)we agreed to have chainstay extended with the peg at the end at 13.375 and instead he made it 13.25,when i asked malo why he never anwsered.NOT WHAT I ORDERED.

why is the design wrong??????????


3)The back end is not welded straight,that means that the backwheel is not parallel to the front,i wanst sure about this,when i send my frame to france for malo to "repair" the frame he told me the frame is straight,but you can see this with your eyes!Not only me but at least 4 more riders,and a bike shop i ll post pics for this later..

why the two wheels are not parallel?pics soon!

4)My two friends alex alexandridis and george kikos frames also cracked.
my frame lasted around 12 months till it crack and the other 2 frames around 5 months of riding each one,when i asked malo why is george frame cracked he told me that the overlapping weld that george wanted at the seatpost connection is prone to crack and it is not the strongest and he doesnt have time to inform everybody what is the strongest choice...

ok malo told me that there is no time to inform everybody about their choices.he is right.Its all about how fast you will finish the frame.

5)Did i say already that he blocked me,miloc mihailovic,alex alexandridis,and george kikos from facebook because we upload pics with our cracked frames,each one costed 500 euro......

why delete us and blocked us from fb?you know what happened,you saw the pic i uploaded on my fb as the comments also,that was the only thing i do.


please anwser me this questions also..


this is the frame,at first we made it extended at 13.45 then i send an email to malo to do the extended length 13.375..
instead he made it 13.25''without asking me
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: out~riding on July 13, 2014, 03:49:10 PM
I think this is the first time I read some public bashing of PIR. It can happen with the best.

When you design and build a custom frame it's like a prototype, it hasn't been tested like a production frame so you can almost expect that it won't be 100%. You are basically the guinea pig testing your own design and you found the weak spot.

You have to also understand that he is a small business and probably can't afford to be constantly repairing your frame or building you new ones without profit.

Now if everything you say is correct, I can agree with you that he shouldn't have stopped answering your emails and blocked you on FB.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: DaddyCool on July 13, 2014, 04:42:53 PM
Hi Sakis,
you are right, I have not commented all your points and some might be true/reasonable. I am sure you don't want to "hate" here but inform others which I appreciate principally.
One thing about the back end: Are you sure that your rear wheel is 100 % centered? If for example your left spokes are tightened a little more than the right ones, your whole wheel is off center. When you assemble such a wheel in a way that the tire has the same clearance to the chain- and seat stays on both sides, your wheel will be not parallel to the main frame any more.
So it this would be the case, both you and Malo would be right in a certain way...
Have you considered this?
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: 2flat2furious on July 13, 2014, 04:55:32 PM
I think the thing that strikes me as weird is that, beyond the design itself I'm not sure what control malo has over whether some frame cracks. His welds always appear to be very clean and well done, and if he's using tubing that's generally on par with what other companies are doing then it boils entirely down to design. If the design itself is something Saki's and his buddies submit, I fail to see how that falls on Malo.

I don't have a stake in defending either party either, I just feel like a lack of education about frame construction is getting someone really mad.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: byke on July 14, 2014, 12:47:20 AM
byke it seems you are getting too much in technical details about the crack it self,
i know that my frame is shorter and with lower stand over than other frames,but not from all i used,the solid frames were with lower stand over and the waltz frame had a bend dt,and same diameter tubes at the backend,my frame had thick dt and bigger diameter tubes than the waltz and the solid frames i used.
as i posted at daddycool anwser i ll tell you the same things..

2)we agreed to have chainstay extended with the peg at the end at 13.375 and instead he made it 13.25,when i asked malo why he never anwsered.NOT WHAT I ORDERED.

why is the design wrong??????????


3)The back end is not welded straight,that means that the backwheel is not parallel to the front,i wanst sure about this,when i send my frame to france for malo to "repair" the frame he told me the frame is straight,but you can see this with your eyes!Not only me but at least 4 more riders,and a bike shop i ll post pics for this later..

why the two wheels are not parallel?pics soon!

4)My two friends alex alexandridis and george kikos frames also cracked.
my frame lasted around 12 months till it crack and the other 2 frames around 5 months of riding each one,when i asked malo why is george frame cracked he told me that the overlapping weld that george wanted at the seatpost connection is prone to crack and it is not the strongest and he doesnt have time to inform everybody what is the strongest choice...

ok malo told me that there is no time to inform everybody about their choices.he is right.Its all about how fast you will finish the frame.

5)Did i say already that he blocked me,miloc mihailovic,alex alexandridis,and george kikos from facebook because we upload pics with our cracked frames,each one costed 500 euro......

why delete us and blocked us from fb?you know what happened,you saw the pic i uploaded on my fb as the comments also,that was the only thing i do.


please anwser me this questions also..


this is the frame,at first we made it extended at 13.45 then i send an email to malo to do the extended length 13.375..
instead he made it 13.25''without asking me

So this is about 3mm in dropout length?
Are you sure you have measured it correctly?

Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: PiR products on July 14, 2014, 08:02:22 AM
Sakis,

If you were not satisfied with your frame, why didn't you send it back to me, especially if you considered it so pricey ?
You would have a complete refund.

Your frame lasted more than a year.

The crack location clearly shows an improper use.

Alejandro,

You asked me to make the lightest frame at something like 1300 g.
Did you cinserely expect to have a strong frame for that weight ?

I'm a frame maker, not a mechanical teacher.

Georges,

you decided to go with the "overlap" CS/seat tube connexion. That kind of connexion tends to crack.
It was your choice, not mine.

The problem with you guys is that your lack of mechanical knowledge makes you take inapropriate choices. You can't blame the frame maker because of that.

I removed/blocked you from Facebook, because I consider your behaviour inapropriate and don't want to waste time with you.
The first reaction you had was to show all the Facebook community how your super expensive custom frame cracked. What did you really expected from me after that ? Be more diplomatic and sensitive, it can't hurt.

That topic reflects your state of mind. You are rancorous and it's not the first time. Remember the Sakis/London bikes/bent bar stem combo drama he brought us few months ago (he removed all the content)...

I'm sure that story will have teach us a lesson, a good one I hope.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: alejandro on July 14, 2014, 11:36:57 AM
Things are getting kind of complicated here

The thing is that i asked for light weights and you did it,it was 1,480gr aproximately, but dont forget also i weight 47 kg,i recieve it 22/12/2012 after one month of riding i hit my back spine so i was out of riding around 2 months and then i was back again,and the frame cracked 7/9/2013 you replace the top tube with another thicker one, so after 7 months it cracked again but then in the upper back triangle in 5/4/2014, my point is that i think you should give us little bit of support,because many riders asked me information about your brand for buying frames from you,but after our 3 frames cracked and you choose to not giving us little bit of support,they change their mind.

You talk about lightweights,
sakis frame weight 2kg,george 1,8kg mines 1,5kg aproximately and all 3 within 5-8 months where cracked and it cost 500 euros each,3 x 500 = 1.500 euro at least you could reccomend to us another specs  so the frames can last little bit longer and not 5-8 months and i hope at least to do this in your future clients!

I will tell you a last thing Malo ,support also means respect your clients,respect your clients means that clients will bring you more clients....but you choose to be your way and try to earn more money from us,....

i will end this story here cause im not a forum writer and i have more important things to do  rather than have a online conversation about a frame..... but i hope the best for you to continue your job but in my opinion try to make better some things about your future clients so you dont lost any of them....

Peace!
Alex Alexandridis
http://alexalexandridis.blogspot.gr/ (http://alexalexandridis.blogspot.gr/)
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on July 14, 2014, 02:08:25 PM
Sakis,

If you were not satisfied with your frame, why didn't you send it back to me, especially if you considered it so pricey ?
You would have a complete refund.

Your frame lasted more than a year.

The crack location clearly shows an improper use.

Alejandro,

You asked me to make the lightest frame at something like 1300 g.
Did you cinserely expect to have a strong frame for that weight ?

I'm a frame maker, not a mechanical teacher.

Georges,

you decided to go with the "overlap" CS/seat tube connexion. That kind of connexion tends to crack.
It was your choice, not mine.

The problem with you guys is that your lack of mechanical knowledge makes you take inapropriate choices. You can't blame the frame maker because of that.

I removed/blocked you from Facebook, because I consider your behaviour inapropriate and don't want to waste time with you.
The first reaction you had was to show all the Facebook community how your super expensive custom frame cracked. What did you really expected from me after that ? Be more diplomatic and sensitive, it can't hurt.

That topic reflects your state of mind. You are rancorous and it's not the first time. Remember the Sakis/London bikes/bent bar stem combo drama he brought us few months ago (he removed all the content)...

I'm sure that story will have teach us a lesson, a good one I hope.

Malo,
1.frame lasted 12-13 months in this period i had 2 months off from riding all august and one more month on eastern if i remember well so actually around 10 months
2.Yes the frame was shorter at the backend but i didnt know that the frame will take so much stress for 4 mm from the peg overhanging from the dropout,if i knew this i would for sure send it back,but you never offered me a choise of sending this back and second i ride almost everyday,so your mistake will make me off from riding
so i thought to keep it
3.you talk so much about mechanical knowledge,me i send all the specs diameter tubes from 2007 to solid bikes and build 4 solid frames for my self,one for manos daskalakis,one for other friend nikos and one for george kikos.
the frames are ridden to this day daily hardcore from all riders with no problem at all..
This is not so much science as you try to promote,you choose thickness diameter and that its..
those frame after 5 years for manos frame and 4 years for nikos frame are still super solid..
what happened to yours?similar weight and tubes,i chose them.
4.And yes the other companies had time to inform me what is better and stronger,i am curious how they found time?
5.you blocked us from fb,my frame was twice cracked ,alex was cracked twice also,george frame also cracked,then we asked you to help us and you said that the frames are older than one year,and you have to charge me 175 euro to put me new seatstay and chainstay for the( twisted) backend OR 75 euro to change the tube that was cracked and you asked money from alex also..
you asked me money for something that you didnt build at the specs i asked you,i ride my wheel at 13.375 and since the new frame was a bit shorter i had the peg off for 4 mm this is not something tragic,maybe you overheat the dropouts when you weld the chaintensioners on my frame?
how do i know that this is not your fault from the temperature on the dropouts,and thats why i think it cracked.
6.why did you blocked milos mihailovic from fb when he saw the picture of my cracked frame and comment that you should support me and change my frame...??
7.you cant come here and tell me that i am rancorous since you have problems with many riders..
do you know the story with londond bikes?my 200 usd bars bend in 2 months,then i got a reply from will redd that he cant help me,when i came here public and post the picture,tex thayer called me at my mobile and we spoke for around 30 minutes we found a solution Guess what they agreed with will redd that they will make me a new bar with new specs .that is what happened i got the second bar with new specs and stronger than the first..
respect to both for the support at their clients.
they did the opposite from you and thats why they are professionals..
8.to byke yes it is around 4 mm i believe maybe 4.5 ,although now i had to ride my wheel at 13.25'' and this is something i dont like but since malo make the frame shorter i have to protect the frame from cracking and ride the frame at malo specs,thank you malo!!!
9.daddycool the wheels are not parallel and my wheel is centered 100%.tommorow that i ll find time i ll post pictures also and everybody can see.

Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: DaddyCool on July 30, 2014, 11:01:41 PM
I would like to know how much these Solid Bikes frames have cost.
Could you show us the pictures of the wheels being not parallel?
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: flatlanderic on August 01, 2014, 10:18:29 AM
I've had 5 frames from Malo. All with tiny diameter tubing, thin and with short head tubes ! My frames are all very compressed with ultra low top tubes and high bottom brackets.  All ingredients for a frame that will snap like a tooth pick!  I also do tail whips, off drops on flat and down stairs and I weigh 215 pounds and it weighs 3.8 so I don't think the problem lies with mechanical error. Sure the tubing may be thin but you picked it.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: ImUlllNosFides on August 01, 2014, 07:32:32 PM
Yow Sakis! 
What about those pictures? I want to see them!
Its been 2 weeks already since you were going to find some time to take some pics, all drama, bashing Malo / PiR and still no pictures of your allegedly one side shorter/ Malo built it wrong dropout, come on man show us! This is pretty dodgy.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: leeroy002 on August 02, 2014, 12:32:05 AM
has anyone broke an intrikat or a reklamation?
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 02, 2014, 12:04:05 PM
Yow Sakis! 
What about those pictures? I want to see them!
Its been 2 weeks already since you were going to find some time to take some pics, all drama, bashing Malo / PiR and still no pictures of your allegedly one side shorter/ Malo built it wrong dropout, come on man show us! This is pretty dodgy.
I ll try today.I tried yesterday but it is difficult to see it from a photo,thats why i havent posted yet,the dropouts are not parallel with the top tube,if this is visible from a photo it is good.
As for the lenght it is shorter,malo can confirm this for sure.he made it shorter.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: justfour on August 03, 2014, 11:17:09 AM
This reminds me of the threads were B_ZekE kept posting photos, but the vid never came..
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 04:45:16 PM
hey,i know that you all have good opinion for malo.
I did the same you can see at pir products topic what i have write in the past.
I am not hating or something the thing is malo didnt react professionally.
from january february when i had my frame for repair malo told me it is straight,his jig is probably not straight or the frame cant handle strong riding,thats why i will buy from now on heattreated frames only like the waltz,intrikat,code or custom frames from dylan worsley that he is using supertherm tubing.As the tubing of malo cant handle strong riding.Malo after my frame cracked second time at the second seastay he asked me why i havent buy a frame with lifetime warantee as i am strong on parts.
i HAVE the pictures ready,can somebody give me a link to upload them for free?as image shack is charging now and global can only accept 1.5 mb size picture...
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 05:03:00 PM
hello.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 05:09:30 PM
As you watch the wheel from bottom to top it gets to the right as you look higher..
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 05:10:11 PM
Do that pegs look parallel to anybody?nice job!!!!!
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 05:19:37 PM
pic eleven as you can see the front pegs are parallel to the bars/floor....while the back pegs are not...
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 05:24:51 PM
one more
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY
Post by: sakis on August 03, 2014, 05:29:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=346FenBlFLE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=346FenBlFLE) Here is me riding the frame and alex george and chris..i just noticed it now that i took the pics that the frame is so bad constructed.........before i thought it just a little bit unparallel..i recomend to people with pir frames to take some pictures similar to these as your frame might be like mine and you dont know it..
i ride this 500euro frame 4-5 months like this from when i noticed it,malo inspected it and sayed it is straight...Areyou sure malo that the your jig is straight????
HEY malo by the way,will you ever anwser me why you make the back end shorter?......

this is the peg at 13.20'',the frame has been designed to have 13.375 with a 38 mm peg at the backend of the dropout.
thebad thing peg i use has around 36 mm at the end so if you add 2 mm from the peg ,2 more mm that the peg is already overhanging and 4 mm from 13.375 the frame is at least 8 mm shorter than what i ordered.......
i dont hate malo as he tries to help the small community of flatland but please man support your clients a little bit. to the rider that asked
the solid biked frames were about 300 euro but solid doesnt make frames anymore so dylan worsley is making them now with solid tubes as aaron told me...and i suggest dylan for future frame making..peace guys ride on.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: alejandro on September 23, 2014, 11:52:25 AM
Cracked again and again and again......its time for a new frame!I will throw this one in the garbage....
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: byke on September 23, 2014, 11:41:15 PM
Again, unless you are claiming this was due to faulty material.
It would seem clear that the reason why the material has cracked, is from fatigue (wear and tear).
And the spec choices chosen (Design) is what has let you down.

I would advise that anyone who is looking to get a frame or part made to their specification.
To ensure that they know what they are doing, as a builder will only make what you commission them to make.

Without wanting to rub salt in the wounds, I have had stuff made by PIR and it has been ridden by me ... passed to friends and so on. But they still are in one piece because of the specs chosen in combination with the quality of the workmanship.

Now if I had chosen the wrong tubing secs or angles that put undue pressure in certain areas.
Then regardless how well the frame was made, it would still have failed as structural design relies on this.

I am afraid, what I have seen so far only points to poor choices in design (relating to the customer).
Rather than failure of manufacturing.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: sakis on September 24, 2014, 12:50:06 PM
byke,your frame weights around 2.6 kg or more?those frame weight 1.55-2.2 kg..my frame was welded  with twisted shorter backend from what i ordered..alex frame was light but the thing that is breaking the frames is that after the welds they havent take out the stress from the temperature..as it has to be done all our mechanics that show it said as the same thing..
Also you say that you ride your frames..do  you actually ride flatland? can you show us a video so we know what stress you put on your frames? ecxept part designs...
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: 1 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:18 PM
It is safe to call these one-off designs "prototypes" or "experimental"....so eventual breakage should not be a total surprise.

Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: byke on September 24, 2014, 03:58:28 PM
byke,your frame weights around 2.6 kg or more?those frame weight 1.55-2.2 kg..my frame was welded  with twisted shorter backend from what i ordered..alex frame was light but the thing that is breaking the frames is that after the welds they havent take out the stress from the temperature..as it has to be done all our mechanics that show it said as the same thing..
Also you say that you ride your frames..do  you actually ride flatland? can you show us a video so we know what stress you put on your frames? ecxept part designs...

Wow, theres some scorned vitriol.

No, you are wrong again.
I haven't had any frames made for me by PIR that weigh 2.6kg or more.
I don't know where you made up that number, but judging by your post reply are clearly grasping.

I have said my piece about design and where the areas of responsibility lay.
But clearly in an attempt to save face you are now fabricating information. Such as the 2.6kg statement and bringing in my question regarding riding into play.

But the difference being is that I am not willing to entertain any sand pit tantrums.
I have worked closely in the industry, and you clearly haven't.

I will say it again, if you try and design something and have it fabricated.
You need to know what you are doing and what your needs are.

If however you choose to buy a product or have a product made that doesn't suit your needs.
Then you have to accept responsibility for your choices. Unless it was a manufacturing defect. But so far I don't see any evidence to suggest this. As examples such as cracks in dropouts or cracks in seat tubes indicate that the wrong material spec were chosen for the need of the rider. The same goes for twisting also.

Example : If a stock handlebar breaks on you because you have purchased one that uses too thin tubing for your needs in an effort to keep weight down and is marketed to riders who ride smooth and don't put so much force through their riding style. Then it is your fault if it fails as you have chosen the part for your needs. You can try and windge about it online and make false claims in the hopes of shaming companies into covering the costs for your mistakes. But when evidence clearly shows where the issue lies, then all you have is desperation.

The same goes for a frame, if you design a frame and have it fabricated. Only for it to fail due to design choices. Then it is your fault.

Maybe next time you could research your needs better instead of deleting posts and blocking people from Facebook who are nice enough to take time out of their daily lives to provide you with clear and accurate information when you are making false statements.

Either way, good luck.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: sakis on September 24, 2014, 05:05:11 PM
i delete people on fb when they attack me personal.
You are not spending time of your life to help me by the way,you are just trying to prove that we did everything wrong..
Anyway i quit you win.what is the weight of your frame by the way?the last frame pir malo made for you..
i thought 2.6 kg but i can be wrong!
my needs are researched very good i have make custom frames again and they last much longer,around 8-9 frames! some are still riden, so why alex frame cracked in the dropouts?
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: byke on September 24, 2014, 06:34:12 PM
I believe Alex's dropouts cracked because the design chosen was not suitable for his needs.

It was clearly a dropout design used in the wrong setting, and the removal of excess material + the thickness of the dropout was what led it to fail in the setting is was subjected too.

There is nothing to indicate that the material failed due to workmanship or material quality. But there is a strong indication that the metal failed due to stress by design. And that is the responsibility of the designer/customer.

Had Alex chosen a more suitable design for his needs, then I suspect we wouldn't have seen this issue.

In regards to this claim that "I personally attacked you", Poppycock.
Post a clear and un-doctored screen shot of such claimed incident and if you are right I will gladly apologise to you.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: PiR products on January 28, 2015, 11:58:01 AM
Just for the record, I think it would be usefull for people to know what Sakis & Alex wrote concerning the frames they ordered from me :

this is an extract from a Facebook conversation :

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v631/malovelo/Sakis%20Alex_zpsc1fbnojx.jpg)

According to those words I think we can say they were happy with their frames
The fact that they broke them, just illustrates that they weren't strong enough for their kind of riding.

PiR can make strong frames, light frames or whatever the customer is looking for, but once the drawing has been validated, you can't say it was badly manufactured because it breaks.
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: sakis on January 29, 2015, 05:36:58 PM
I am not getting into this thing again malo.

The screenshot you posted was from an internal message you send to me and many othe riders from other countries to remove from our friend list ricardo zulu because he tried to damage pir bikes by posting pics from your damaged frames.

Yes the weldings are good the frame is good.But check the pics at the previous page to see how straight you weld the backend..

Also you made the frame 13.25 extended and i have asked 13.375..
You knew from the start that i needed a strong design and because you had only 0.035'' bullet tipped dropouts you told me in the email that they are strong and many big companies are using them just to concince me buying from you..
Anyway i dont care what you do in your bike company,and if i wanted to make a problem for you i would post pictures of the cracked frames in your pir/malo pictures thread..
So good luck with your company but you are in my black list since you never support our cracked frames.
By the way i have design 3 solid bikes frames for me and 3 more for friends that are still getting ridden daily after 5+ years by top greek riders.
Anyway do whatever you want in your company but since you post again at this topic maybe anwser me why you design me the frame wrong.....checkyour emails i asked 13.375 not 13.25...
I ride only frames from companies that support their customers..byee
Title: Re: BE CAREFUL with PIR PRODUCTS/STAY AWAY(PICS ADDED)
Post by: alejandro on January 30, 2015, 11:37:56 AM
542 euros for a frame that last's 5 months,100 euros per month!hahahahhaa congrats!
( 5 euros extra for the A letter) no comment..... :)



Peace!
Alex Alexandridis
http://alexalexandridis.blogspot.gr/ (http://alexalexandridis.blogspot.gr/)